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Old 01-01-2020, 03:44 PM   #1  
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Default Passenger compliance regulations?

I am trying to locate specific regulations related to passenger compliance during an emergency under 135 operations. Specifically if a passenger, though "not" interfering with a crew member, is not adhering to crew member instructions.

I know about 14 C.F.R. 121.317(k): “Each passenger shall comply with instructions given him or her by a crewmember regarding compliance with” seat belt requirements. But that only refers to seatbelts. How about any other direction from the crew?

How about any regulation that requires pilots to notify passengers of turbulence or any hazard to flight? What if we are expecting turbulence along our route. Are we required to notify passengers by regulation? It's obviously the correct thing to do but is there a "regulation" that specifically requires it? In this case I am being told we are not required to do anything more than tell passengers to put seatbelts on. Supposedly there is no requirement to brief passengers beyond the original passenger brief before take off and that the FAs are responsible for that. The captain and FO don't have to say anything to the passengers beyond the before flight brief required in 135.117.

I have seen AC 121-24C which includes the "suggestion" of a prelanding briefing for 135 ops but nothing that requires it.

There doesn't technically seem to be any requirement for passengers to follow directions of crew except for seatbelts and smoking.

Otherwise it seems to be the wild west at least in 135 charters.

Nor does there seem to be any requirement to notify passengers of upcoming issues along the route of flight or landing other than the AC I quoted above but nothing is in a regulation that I can find.

Can someone suggest something I am missing here? This does involve a specific incident.
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Old 01-02-2020, 02:52 PM   #2  
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Originally Posted by N0000N View Post
I am trying to locate specific regulations related to passenger compliance during an emergency under 135 operations. Specifically if a passenger, though "not" interfering with a crew member, is not adhering to crew member instructions.

I know about 14 C.F.R. 121.317(k): “Each passenger shall comply with instructions given him or her by a crewmember regarding compliance with” seat belt requirements. But that only refers to seatbelts. How about any other direction from the crew?

How about any regulation that requires pilots to notify passengers of turbulence or any hazard to flight? What if we are expecting turbulence along our route. Are we required to notify passengers by regulation? It's obviously the correct thing to do but is there a "regulation" that specifically requires it? In this case I am being told we are not required to do anything more than tell passengers to put seatbelts on. Supposedly there is no requirement to brief passengers beyond the original passenger brief before take off and that the FAs are responsible for that. The captain and FO don't have to say anything to the passengers beyond the before flight brief required in 135.117.

I have seen AC 121-24C which includes the "suggestion" of a prelanding briefing for 135 ops but nothing that requires it.

There doesn't technically seem to be any requirement for passengers to follow directions of crew except for seatbelts and smoking.

Otherwise it seems to be the wild west at least in 135 charters.

Nor does there seem to be any requirement to notify passengers of upcoming issues along the route of flight or landing other than the AC I quoted above but nothing is in a regulation that I can find.

Can someone suggest something I am missing here? This does involve a specific incident.
Most of them are written into the regulations, like 135.122. If it's not written in there, it wouldn't be legally binding. I know of no requirement to brief passengers on turbulence, but in 135.117 it states passengers are required to comply with seatbelt signs and instructions. As far as briefing in general, in 135 it's done before the flight, according to 135.117, adding on to that any specific policies like electronics, etc. Generally, most operators that have problems with passengers not complying with instructions will put the passengers on no-fly lists. Carriage of cargo rules, like not securing items that should be secured, apply to any "person", so that would include passengers. It would help if you explained the behavior you thought was prohibited.
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Old 01-03-2020, 06:39 PM   #3  
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It would help if you explained the behavior you thought was prohibited.
Crusty old co-captain I am flying with says there is no requirement to have any conversation with passengers after take off. Flying a family with little kids on a charter to a west coast ski resort for the holidays, we were notified of turbulence along our route. I went to make an announcement to the passengers captain said don't bother it isn't required. I said basically the same thing you did. Captain said show him the reg that its required. Turns out I can't find one. Our GOM doesn't have anything either.

Earlier, kids were running around the cabin earlier once in cruise and the captain told them to sit down and stop running around. Family member gets ****y with the captain and gives a "we pay your salary sort of conversation".

Trip ended with no one getting hurt but it led to an interesting conversation. There doesn't technically seem to be any requirement for passengers to follow directions of crew except for seatbelts and smoking. Otherwise it seems to be the wild west at least in 135 charters. Nor does there seem to be any requirement to notify passengers of upcoming issues along the route of flight or landing other than a AC I found suggesting a pre landing brief but nothing is in a regulation that I can find.

As far as I can tell he is "technically" correct. An ******* but a technically correct *******. The passengers were *******s too. Clearly the captain wanted to put them in their place. The kids were running around a screaming in the cabin hopped up on holiday candy. We could hear the kids over our headsets and the flight deck door closed. Captain finally had enough and went back to have a "talk". Comes back and tells me the story of his "talk" and it got into a discussion about captain's authority. I even broke out the FAR/AIM. End result was except for seatbelts and smoking there wasn't anything we could do. As we approached the mountains we got the call about turbulence at altitude. I went to make the announcement and the captain stopped me. Basically he told me he wanted to give them a lesson. I said something to the effect of we are responsible for anyone getting hurt. He said we did more than we are required to do by asking them to sit down. And turn on the seatbelt sign. But nothing exists in the regulation requiring so. He obviously wanted to make an example after being told to shut up and color by the passenger. Fortunately we didn't get anything more than light chop even on the descent.

I am real uncomfortable with how this played out. Captain has something along the lines of 40,000 hours as a legacy captain. I have just over 2500. Not much I am going to be able to do to persuade him without something specific written in the regs.
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Old 01-03-2020, 10:08 PM   #4  
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Crusty old co-captain I am flying with says there is no requirement to have any conversation with passengers after take off. Flying a family with little kids on a charter to a west coast ski resort for the holidays, we were notified of turbulence along our route. I went to make an announcement to the passengers captain said don't bother it isn't required. I said basically the same thing you did. Captain said show him the reg that its required. Turns out I can't find one. Our GOM doesn't have anything either.
I agree, I know of no "requirements" to have a conversation after.
Quote:
Earlier, kids were running around the cabin earlier once in cruise and the captain told them to sit down and stop running around. Family member gets ****y with the captain and gives a "we pay your salary sort of conversation".
But it IS a requirement for passengers to comply with crewmember instructions regarding seatbelts. The requirement is referenced in 135.117(a)(2). If the crewmember instructs the passenger, this should be binding and if the crewmember wanted to bring action against the passenger, if there was ample evidence, it would be pursued. Most of the inspectors and offices take passengers interfering or not following instructions pretty seriously, if not always able to prosecute due to a lack of evidence (doesn't mean it didn't happen, just not enough exists to prove it in court).

Quote:
Trip ended with no one getting hurt but it led to an interesting conversation. There doesn't technically seem to be any requirement for passengers to follow directions of crew except for seatbelts and smoking. Otherwise it seems to be the wild west at least in 135 charters. Nor does there seem to be any requirement to notify passengers of upcoming issues along the route of flight or landing other than a AC I found suggesting a pre landing brief but nothing is in a regulation that I can find.
There are a few other requirements for the passengers, like in regards to stowage of trays, cargo, for takeoff and landing, but yeah, not a lot in there. No other significant requirements I can think of.
Quote:
As far as I can tell he is "technically" correct. An ******* but a technically correct *******. The passengers were *******s too. Clearly the captain wanted to put them in their place. The kids were running around a screaming in the cabin hopped up on holiday candy. We could hear the kids over our headsets and the flight deck door closed. Captain finally had enough and went back to have a "talk". Comes back and tells me the story of his "talk" and it got into a discussion about captain's authority. I even broke out the FAR/AIM. End result was except for seatbelts and smoking there wasn't anything we could do. As we approached the mountains we got the call about turbulence at altitude. I went to make the announcement and the captain stopped me. Basically he told me he wanted to give them a lesson. I said something to the effect of we are responsible for anyone getting hurt. He said we did more than we are required to do by asking them to sit down. And turn on the seatbelt sign. But nothing exists in the regulation requiring so. He obviously wanted to make an example after being told to shut up and color by the passenger. Fortunately we didn't get anything more than light chop even on the descent.

I am real uncomfortable with how this played out. Captain has something along the lines of 40,000 hours as a legacy captain. I have just over 2500. Not much I am going to be able to do to persuade him without something specific written in the regs.
Just because you may be "right" by the FARs may not absolve you in a civil suit if someone was a POS enough to do it. It could also be careless to knowingly operate into conditions that you know/expect to cause injury to the passengers, even reckless depending on the intent/premeditation. Does that "require" an announcement? That would probably have to go down in court, but there's no way that would look "good" IMO. It's careless in general to leave yourself this exposed/liable as a person, not even getting into an FAA definition or anything. Some people are ****bags and you aren't going to change that on a flight, so you are going to have to deal with it sometimes and you are't going to change the world. You don't "give up", but you stand up and protest/do the right thing when you know you are right. When you don't know if you are right, you make sure you are taking a safe course of action. It would also be a good idea if you encounter any of those "special" customers to take some very good notes in flight, including times and specific actions. If you already have a statement and account of what happened, the other party is going to look pretty poor, especially because they likely did not keep notes and are just trying to remember "their side". Don't let these people ruin your day, keep your distance and keep it professional.
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Old 01-04-2020, 08:27 AM   #5  
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I agree, I know of no "requirements" to have a conversation after.

But it IS a requirement for passengers to comply with crewmember instructions regarding seatbelts. The requirement is referenced in 135.117(a)(2). If the crewmember instructs the passenger, this should be binding and if the crewmember wanted to bring action against the passenger, if there was ample evidence, it would be pursued. Most of the inspectors and offices take passengers interfering or not following instructions pretty seriously, if not always able to prosecute due to a lack of evidence (doesn't mean it didn't happen, just not enough exists to prove it in court).


There are a few other requirements for the passengers, like in regards to stowage of trays, cargo, for takeoff and landing, but yeah, not a lot in there. No other significant requirements I can think of.


Just because you may be "right" by the FARs may not absolve you in a civil suit if someone was a POS enough to do it. It could also be careless to knowingly operate into conditions that you know/expect to cause injury to the passengers, even reckless depending on the intent/premeditation. Does that "require" an announcement? That would probably have to go down in court, but there's no way that would look "good" IMO. It's careless in general to leave yourself this exposed/liable as a person, not even getting into an FAA definition or anything. Some people are ****bags and you aren't going to change that on a flight, so you are going to have to deal with it sometimes and you are't going to change the world. You don't "give up", but you stand up and protest/do the right thing when you know you are right. When you don't know if you are right, you make sure you are taking a safe course of action. It would also be a good idea if you encounter any of those "special" customers to take some very good notes in flight, including times and specific actions. If you already have a statement and account of what happened, the other party is going to look pretty poor, especially because they likely did not keep notes and are just trying to remember "their side". Don't let these people ruin your day, keep your distance and keep it professional.
Thank you for taking the time to make a detailed response.
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Old 01-04-2020, 09:46 AM   #6  
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I went to make the announcement and the captain stopped me. Basically he told me he wanted to give them a lesson. I said something to the effect of we are responsible for anyone getting hurt. He said we did more than we are required to do by asking them to sit down. And turn on the seatbelt sign. But nothing exists in the regulation requiring so. He obviously wanted to make an example after being told to shut up and color by the passenger. Fortunately we didn't get anything more than light chop even on the descent.
Your concern is legit. Regs aside, the crew could get sued if someone got hurt and you didn't tell them about turbulence.

"I wanted to teach them a lesson" is not going to be a good defense in a civil suit, quite the opposite in fact... more like intentional tort.
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Old 01-04-2020, 11:36 AM   #7  
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Your concern is legit. Regs aside, the crew could get sued if someone got hurt and you didn't tell them about turbulence.

"I wanted to teach them a lesson" is not going to be a good defense in a civil suit, quite the opposite in fact... more like intentional tort.
Plus, if the Feds smell a bad attitude they have a Swiss Army Knife in the “careless & reckless” part of the regs. This is one of those games where even winning may cost more than the prize is worth.
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