121 Termination and PRIA fun
 

So, I was "separated from training" from a regional two years back. I goofed the MV and then went on to fail my LOE (checkride). The training board decided to send me home for scheduling reasons l, then release me involuntary instead of asking or allowing a second checkride. O.k. great.
Moving on with my life, I've recently begun interviewing and in the process have received a PRIA from the regional. Instead of simply saying "separated from training" they decided to put:

"Termination involuntary due to poor performance/ poor conduct. Do not rehire "

This seems a tad harsh and possibly a coding mistake? Are there avenues which I can take to try and rectify this?
I have texted, emailed, and messaged everyone I know or can find to attempt to get this fixed. Maybe I'm just thinking too far into it?

Thanks for the advice and help

The “poor performance” part seems 100% accurate. You may need to really do a self assessment to understand if the conduct part fits as well.

With some of what I’ve seen over the years, these types of remarks are a good thing. I believe that flying is for everyone while professional aviation is not. There are people who are great people who simply don’t belong moving iron with people onboard.

With that said, this is a shot across your bow. Actually, you’re technically sinking. Should be a solid wake up call to get it together. You’ll likely still be hired by someone and it allows you to start over and prove people wrong. I wish more pria reports said this….

"Separated from training" would appear to be a euphemism for terminated. The original poster indicates that he was removed from his training due to a failure, sent home, and not brought back, with his employment discontinued. That's terminated. Fired. Let go.

I do not know the original poster, so cannot make a judgement regarding his or her fitness to fly or perform on the job. With that in mind, there are four relevant issues that I see here. Two regard the poster, and two regard the process for getting back on the horse, if that's possible or advisable. I make no comment regarding possibility, or advisability.

the first observation is that the original poster does not either realize or accept that (s)he was fired. There's no going forward until this is realized. One can't get back on the highway until one realizes that one's gone off the road. Do that first.

Second, there does not appear to be an understanding or acceptance that the termination was appropriate. Clearly the former employer felt so, and clearly didn't feel that the decision was warranted. One cannot go to another company, having been fired, and attempt to argue that it was unjust, that one is right, while the former employer, training review board, instructors, check airman, and possibly union, are all wrong. That wasn't said here, but its implied, if one doesn't accept the past, own it, and use it to determine what needs to be corrected. If the original poster is to move on, then (s)he must be able to show that the event is fully understood, and must show the maturity to not only accept it, but to have made clear, obvious strides to get past it by correcting and improving upon the reasons that the termination occurred. Without that, the road is closed.

That said, PRIA is ending with the Pilot Records Database now underway. PRIA involved a short lookback period of several years, and one could techanically get beyond that and the past would become murky. Under the PRD, one's flying record becomes a lifetime column of stick notes and reports; any failures or black marks never go away. That said, under the PRD, one also has the option of submitting one's own comments, which might be a rebuttal or an explanation, or whatever it is that one feels should be appended. Those also become part of the permanent record. With this in mind, one must be very careful of what's in the PRD, and also what one submits, for reasons identified above. The PRD is not a function of likes, social media posts, and winning people to one's side. It's a compilation of one's historical documents, and it's from those documents that one is judged. If one hasn't accepted the past and moved on by fixing what one did wrong, seeking more training, putting a solid work history between one and the failures, then commenting otherwise may only serve to paint a bad picture, or worse.

There are certainly cases with some employers that involve internal politics, bad chemistry, corruption, bad actors, etc, in which one could be terminated inappropriately. I've seen it first hand from employers who dealt unfairly with someone, to shots across the bow in union busting exercises, in which good pilots went down in flames when someone in management tried flexing their muscles to intimidate the work group. Certainly one shouldn't simply accept these events and move on; they do deserve a rebuttal and they do deserve comment. Again, one must be very careful about what one says or does.

This brings me to my fourth observation, which is that there are a number of well-qualified and experienced interview-prep coaches out there who specialize in helping people prepare for interviews and applications; this isn't just polishing delivery in a face to face interview, but reviewing one's records and counseling on how best to approach and handle one's past. Presentation is important, and how you present, own, and address your past is a personal picture one paints to any employer or any listener. Get good counseling on how best to go about that, before proceeding. The cost of the counselor is a very small investment in your future. I strongly suggest that you make that investment.

Edit: yes, sorry. I did forget to put my closing statement in the origonal post. I'm not looking for the termination to be removed, only "poor conduct" thanks for your opinion.


While I agree "poor performance" was an accurate part of what happened, poor conduct Is definitely a below the belt since it is 100% backless and without evidence. I've never once in my life been even pulled aside to "have a talking to" or written up, let alone terminated. Period. But again, I messed up and have moved on. Now, poor conduct is simply inflammatory and false.
I would LOVE an explanation or justification for this, and that is all I'm asking for.

Since I believe it to be a mistake, I would like to know the best route to make this right, or get an answer.

Again, your comments show that you do not own what happened, nor see yourself as the problem.

The employer isn't required to provide evidence.

What you have done "once in your life" is irrelevant and sounds very much like an excuse. Whether you've ever been written up, reprimanded, or had a "talking-to," means nothing and has no bearing here. The ONLY thing that matters is this termination. You don't get to build up good credit and use it to cancel out bad. You have a termination on your record. Many employers will simply pass on you, merely for having it. Those who do decide to give you a chance aren't going to do so based on whether or not you were ever reprimanded in the past, or anyone gave you a "talking-to." Those who do give you a chance to explain yourself are looking for one thing: your ownership of this event, and your ability to show what you learned, and how you sought additional training and help to move on from that event. Anything else is your career suicide. Hopefully you can wrap your head around this.

Ownership means you accept and embrace the reason you were fired. Screwed up an approach, went low without disconnecting the autopilot, messed up a go-around, got unstable and didn't correct it, or whatever. Know it, own it. Owning means you accept full responsibility for the event. It means that you see it as a grave enough mistake that it led to your firing, that you take it seriously, and that you sought enough additional training and help that. you show you took positive corrective action, and you used it to grow as a pilot and a human being. Any other tack, any other spin, any other direction or excuse, will paint you negatively. You have a choice here in the sun; you can either be a suntan or a cancer, but you can't be both. You have to choose.

Someone who can't accept what occurred hasn't moved on, and any employer worth their weight in wet salt will know this and see it for what it is. Again, until you own this, your progress is done.

Extremely well written.

Yes, it is a very hard pill to swallow. I feel that I have taken it seriously and learned a LOT from the experience. I was able to immediately go back to a previous employer, then continue on to a second small 135. So, I am currently working.

I will have to reflect on my portrayal of how I feel about the whole thing, but what I am concerned about is strictly the "poor conduct". Poor performance is obvious, I failed and was given the boot. But no mention of "poor performance' anywhere in my history or mentioned anywhere by anyone is very concerning to me.

I have spent upwards of 4-5k dollars on interview prep for 121 interviews, but because I was not aware of the "poor conduct" portion of this, it is a surprise.

I very much appreciate your post!

I see the problem here, i left out the ending paragraph when copying this post over from my word pad.

Apologies, I only mean to rebut the "poor conduct" statement of the PRIA, not poor performance. That is obviously justified and the reason for the termination.

I would edit the original post, but it would appear that I cannot.

No, I'm not bitter against the airline or training board, it is what it is. This is not the first time I've failed in life, but the "poor conduct" is what I meant to be advised on here.

Thanks everyone for the conversation.

I was former SkyWest. The Maneuvers Validation and Type Ride (LOE) are both PRIA reported. Both those busts will be in your PRD. Prospective employers will decipher your reason for termination with or without an explanation. You were not terminated from employment for scheduling reasons.

“Termination involuntary due to poor performance/poor conduct” is accurate. “Do not rehire” is harsh but SkyWest removed their rehire policy around four years back.

Wish you the best with your interviews. I would just focus on owning your failures and focus on detailed explanations for what you learned.

edit: So you’re upset with the “/poor conduct”. The / means “either, or” not both poor performance “and” poor conduct. Again, prospective employers would decipher the termination was the result of poor performance.

Good luck.

It may be worth exploring the specifics, as the conversation is underway.

Don't reveal anything here that would allow others to read your posts and know who you are, however.

I sense that your concern here is how others might perceive you, based on the phrasing of the sentences regarding your termination. Rather than getting hung up on whether the word is "performance" or "conduct," perhaps it's better to explore what actually occurred, and how to move on from that.

For perspective, I've been around the industry a while. A long, long time, actually. In that time, I've seen the whole gambit, from rides that stopped when the student went more than 50' below MDA without disconnecting the autopilot, to students who returned to the hotel and beat up the instructor and tried to drown him in the pool. I've seen students who didn't recognize the problem, others who became deeply depressed over the matter, others who went straight back to the hotel, hit the books, rented a simulator, and came back and passed with flying colors, students who quit and never returned, and a few that had screaming meltdowns. I saw an entire class of upgrades fail and they all later claimed that they'd been the best class of upgrades to ever go through the program, and that they'd all have passed, if only they had one more sim session. It's very possible that each one of those events could have been described by the same language you're citing here...not all those events were unrecoverable. I've known a lot of pilots who had some event in their career from which they moved on and had very successful futures, too. A lot.

Simply because a company will not re-hire does not mean the person who has left is a bad prospect. I know companies that will not re-hire anyone who has left them, whether voluntary or involuntary. The devil, as they say, is in the details.

Let's get to know the devil.

The timing of this is a little suspicious. That was during the height of Covid. I have heard of many people getting multiple extra sims to be sure that they were ready for the check rides. Perhaps he was fired for the convenience of the operator.

Joe

His final bust was LOE. Most operators don’t want to lose someone at that point. A pertinent question would be how many hours of LOE were provided to him prior to termination. If I were interviewing him for a future job I would check his logbooks to see what LOE he received. 25 hours I would give him the benefit of doubt. 40 or more and I would have concerns.

Not IOE, i did not pass the LOE. I think it's line orientation exam. The ATP checkride.

Wording sounds harsh, but not inaccurate. Recommend you hire someone for one on one interview prep about how to answer the related questions to help you successfully navigate the future. That will probably be cheaper and more effective than trying to fight pria etc.

Sounds like he means a LOFT ride.

Frequently I've heard that a LOFT is "non-jeopardy." It's not.

I've represented people in termination proceedings who got there based on their LOFT ride and other "non-jeopardy" events.

There's no such thing as a "non-jeopardy" event.

No, he means a LOE (Line Oriented Evaluation). It's a similar type of session to LOFT but like has been said, it's the main jeopardy event in the AQP process. It's the session that results in the issuance or notice of disapproval of a type rating / ATP (if required). It has to be conducted by a check airman (APD in the case of type rating / ATP issuance). LOFT can be conducted by an appropriately qualified instructor.

PRIA option
 

"Termination involuntary due to poor performance/ poor conduct. Do not rehire " - poster

Termination due to performance is easy to support via a pass fail on your ride.
The "poor conduct" is a more difficult assertion. It is highly subjective and often based on personalities or grudges. Large company HR departments would require a file a foot thick detailing every action the employee took that would lead to termination for "conduct". The cost of litigation requires it.
The "Do not rehire" is a very risky statement. A candidate terminated due to performance, who gains additional skill or experience, would be allowed a chance to reapply by most reasonable employers. For this reason, I think the "do not rehire" is coupled to the "poor conduct" statement. If there is info in your file to support their claim then take some time to reflect and learn from it. If there is an absence of supporting or correct data in your file you may have reason to bring suit. This link might may help:
CIVIL LIABILITY UNDER THE PILOT RECORDS IMPROVEMENT ACT - Legal Guides - Avvo

Yeah all rides, and most all sim sessions put numbers up on the board with the employer (and ultimately the FAA) which determine how long they'll continue trying to work with you.

In this context "Jeopardy Event" means an event which would flag as a failure on PRIA.

But be advised that "non-jeopardy" events may still be apparent on the PRIA report due to the sequence of events, amount of OE, etc

That does help. I'll have to put some time into reading it after I get off work.
No, there was nothing ever mentioned to me about conduct through training or in my separation phone call. Simply, "a board decision since i wasnt meetint the teaining desdlines and didnt pass my checkride".
There was never even a hint that i had done anything wrong during training.
I was never written up nore spoken to about conduct during my time at this regional. That's why I'm so confused about it. Since I'm not getting any responses from them about the situation, I'd like to investigate and have the false statement removed.
AOPA has a legal department that I pay into, but none of the lawyers I contacted responded about thr situation either. So I'm just kinda stuck here seeing if anyone would suggest someone I could consult

You failed not one but two events and they sent you home. You’re doing everything you can to find someone who can fight this for you over a few words but in reality your true intention is to have the entire statement removed. Then after having the entire statement removed you can walk into your next interview and downplay your failures as much as you’ve been downplaying it on these forums.

Ok, thanks
How does this statement help anyone?
I am curious, how have I downplayed my failures here? I'm simply trying to find out why I was stamped with a "poor conduct" which I believe is false.

If you're just implying that "poor conduct " on my pria is nothing I should be worried about, and should just let it go. Then there are better ways to say that.

This how you started the thread.

“I goofed the MV and then went on to fail my LOE (checkride). The training board decided to send me home for scheduling reasons l, then release me involuntary instead of asking or allowing a second checkride. O.k. great.”

No, you you didn’t “goof” anything, you FAILED MULTIPLE MAJOR training events at a 121 carrier. They removed you from the training location before termination of your employment for liability concerns. That’s standard procedure. They didn’t send you packing for “scheduling reasons”.

Yes, i wish editing past comments were possible here. If you read further in the post, I have clarified my origonal statement and my intentions of the post here sir.

By "goofed" my MV, it was very stupid. Pressing on a guard instead of lifting the guard, pressing the button and verifying that I the necessary items were happening after the proper execution of a "read and do" checklist was a pretty stupid goof on my part and a really stupid way to left myself fail an MV... I'm definitely not intending to down play that at all, I just realize how dumb that truly was.

I'm not under any illusions thst my termination wasn't justified or was separated for "scheduling" if that wasn't clear. I was indeed sent home due to scheduling issues, then was subsequently called Two weeks later after the board decision to terminate me for the two earlier failures. Is that more clear?

This thread is pretty difficult to read. You're intent on removing the words "poor conduct" but your words in this thread display a pretty bad attitude. You keep trying to deflect to scheduling issues ( theres no scheduling issue if the training review board needs to meet before you continue) or how you "never messed anything up" (yes you did. You failed 2 major gateways and reportable events). I don't think you are actually interested in growing from this event as much as you are clearing your name. It doesn't matter what the PRD says, it matters how you recover from the event. What it says does not change the fact that you failed to complete training due to poor performance. PRIA would show the itemized lessons and that will be clear, I'm not sure PRD will but I assume so. I really think you need to stop calling AOPA lawyers and misrepresenting the situation and spend a lot of time reflecting and soul searching. Seriously, who gives a damn what it says? Will that change your performance in the future if it doesn't say conduct? It literally has no impact on your future career unless you wanna make it one and keep digging this hole. Move on man.

A 2 second google showed this was probably selected from a drop down menu of choices. They can't change it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/pilot_records_database&ved=2ahUKEwi9ktvo54_-AhVVVTABHUh2BR0QFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1XdeHa-Ht2UtZ5gq4bE4He

Why terminated - professional disqualification and terminated - poor performance are separate whereas yours sounds combined as an either/ or I am unsure but like I said earlier, it really doesn't matter.

Codydenver, it’s pretty obvious you’re not going to find the support or answers on this open forum that you desire. I strongly recommend that if you want to pursue this, you need to find a good attorney that specializes in labor law. One with experience in aviation labor law would be even better. They will listen objectively to your whole story, then provide you your options.

Trying to do it via the internet will NOT accomplish anything.

Any recruiter will ask himself (not you), "why did this guy not resign in lieu of termination".
The coding (which they likely won't change, why would they) is not the main issue. It is that you let it go to termination instead of calling the CPO and saying hey, I'm done.

Cody Denver I think you are good.

not only are you good, but dont listen to a thing "Finessed" says. Just look at his post history. He is a very angry person who shouldn't be taken seriously.

If a Mesa pilots says “you’re good” you’re definitely good. 🥴🥴🥴🥴

Also interesting you created an account yesterday and posted on this thread immediately. Codydenver’s burner account?

So a recruiter for Newco will not look favorably upon you suing, or threatening to sue a previous employer. Who needs that hassle...

Playing Devil's advocate: No one cares about the wording, "poor performance/poor conduct". It means you screwed up and didn't meet standards. That. Is. All. You explain to Newco exactly what you did wrong and you failed as a result. This was 100% your fault. And you won't be making that mistake again. And you learned to just slow things down.

Relative to other new hires, you have the 121 training experience to succeed. OldCo already did the hard part. They brought you to the finish line. You've seen what its like, you know you can do it. You know the pace, study requirements and how to work in groups to succeed. You know what has to be dedicated to memory. And you now know your weaknesses and where to apply extra effort.

Apply to every Regional and be gratious to the one that takes you. Upgrade to Captain. Become a model employee and the rest will come, with time. You determine your success in life, not anyone else.

Now, on the other hand, if you're a jerk, ignore the above and just go sue those bastards. They probably don't know who they're messing with.

As stated by CodyThis statement says it all. During training??? It’s a goof…. During a check? Poor performance. With concurrence with the CP/DO… the student was sent home. The powers that be reviewed the training/grading records from day one to the date of the failed event… and during OE. After discussion and deliberation it was probably, by unanimous consent, due to poor performance, to terminate said trainee.

Any individual in this situation must take ownership of their short comings. Learn from those short comings. After all, not succeeding is part of the learning process.

Why don’t you lay out exactly how the training went. Did you fail any oral or academic events? Did you require any additional simulator sessions? It’s very odd they would terminate you at the stage you were at. Once you received your termination how did you handle it?