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Boeing facing criminal charges?

Old 06-21-2024, 08:56 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
In othe boeing news, two astronauts are now stuck on the space station. Criminal? Or just the garden variety gross incompetence that we've all become numb to?
So it goes. Let the market decide. Back out the botched mcas cover-up, what’s left? Nothing imho. Flying has never been safer. Where are they (DOJ) going with this? Big reveal the criminal’s smoking gun or move on.
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Old 06-22-2024, 08:00 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by METO Guido
So it goes. Let the market decide. Back out the botched mcas cover-up, what’s left? Nothing imho. Flying has never been safer. Where are they (DOJ) going with this? Big reveal the criminal’s smoking gun or move on.
Ask the pilots out of PDX, who are now named personally in the lawsuits.

In the space realm, the market can and will decide... SpaceX is flexible and fully capable of covering for all of the previously planned boeing missions.

In commercial aircraft, unfortunately, we (the nation) somehow need to fix the rot that goes all the way to the core... it's a market duopoly and Airbus unfortunately is sold out well into the middle of the next decade (with more orders coming, as international customers pivot away from BCA). Vast right wing conspiracy?

In addition to the impact on those airlines with orders on the books, boeing is the single largest US exporter by dollar-value. So not a trivial economic enabler.


Breaking news this morning, astronaut return delayed indefinitely now...

https://www.newsnationnow.com/space/...ew-from-space/
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Old 06-22-2024, 01:30 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
In other boeing news, two astronauts are now stuck on the space station. Criminal? Or just the garden variety gross incompetence that we've all become numb to?
they are not stuck, they are delayed. Did you even read the article you posted. They are trying to be safe, but I guess that’s not good enough for you. If you were in charge guess you would just send it! They are following procedures. Guess you don’t like being a pilot and want to be replaced by AI. The only reasons they pay us so much to fly is because we know how to fly them when they break.

but you keep praying for a world where they planes just do everything themselves and pilots become obsolete.
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Old 06-22-2024, 01:30 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
Ask the pilots out of PDX, who are now named personally in the lawsuits.

In the space realm, the market can and will decide... SpaceX is flexible and fully capable of covering for all of the previously planned boeing missions.

In commercial aircraft, unfortunately, we (the nation) somehow need to fix the rot that goes all the way to the core... it's a market duopoly and Airbus unfortunately is sold out well into the middle of the next decade (with more orders coming, as international customers pivot away from BCA). Vast right wing conspiracy?

In addition to the impact on those airlines with orders on the books, boeing is the single largest US exporter by dollar-value. So not a trivial economic enabler.


Breaking news this morning, astronaut return delayed indefinitely now...

https://www.newsnationnow.com/space/...ew-from-space/
Organizational loss of focus, yes. Compound inadequacies of internal & regulatory oversight, yes. Conspiracy, no there there. Exceptional value at current pricing.. hurry in to your local Boeing dealer today. No interest financing for the first 3 years to qualified buyers:)
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Old 06-22-2024, 02:08 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
That's not how it really works in the legal system. Get arrested for murder, get tried and acquitted (aka Not Guilty), and then try to get back to your life and career as an "innocent" man and let us know how that works out.

Here's an example of someone who is actually innocent...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_icAZPCEv6E&t=11s
I flew with a Captain who's 16yr old babysitter accused him of forcing her to perform oral sex. He was off work for 2 years fighting this, luckily they put him on admin status and kept his paycheck coming. But he spent $200K in legal fees and was found not guilty. The accusations were a scam, the babysitter had a friend who was going to commit perjury to back up her story. The babysitter was also a prostitute with a website but that wasn't allowed into evidence due to "rape shield" laws. The Captain had a physical abnormality on his genitials that would have been obvious had the babysitter been telling the truth. Under questioning she had no clue about that, and then the friend backed out of testifying so the prosecutions case went down the drain.
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Old 06-23-2024, 11:45 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by PNWFlyer
they are not stuck, they are delayed. Did you even read the article you posted. They are trying to be safe, but I guess that’s not good enough for you. If you were in charge guess you would just send it! They are following procedures. Guess you don’t like being a pilot and want to be replaced by AI. The only reasons they pay us so much to fly is because we know how to fly them when they break.
Ah the semantics defense. How long do they have to be delayed to be actually stuck? Until NASA pays SpaceX to bring them back?

20 years ago if you had asked who could provide the most reliable human space transport what would the answer be? SpaceX, Boeing, China or Russia? Boeing isn't even in the top three. They only made the top four because there isn't a number five.

I think there's been too much excusing, deflecting, and blaming (and financial market fixation). Need to focus on management, engineering, production, and QA instead.

In light of all their other obvious issuse, Boeing should have done an all stop on the starliner and completed a comprehensive review (and a full-mission-profile unmanned test flight). More delay yes, but I think the due diligence would have been appreciated by Nasa, congress, industry observers, et al. Instead, more rush to deliver, cash the check, and hope it clears before any chickens come home to roost.


Originally Posted by PNWFlyer
but you keep praying for a world where they planes just do everything themselves and pilots become obsolete.
??? But modern space capsules are exactly that, not piloted, you're just along for the ride. It's like an elevator, you press one button and it does the rest. Much as they'd like to, it's going to be hard for boeing to blame the astronauts for this one. I'm sure their PR folks have been frantically trying to figure out how to do that, but probably not happening this time.
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Old 06-24-2024, 10:13 AM
  #27  
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Meanwhile back on earth, US prosecutors are recommending that DOJ proceed with criminal charges for boeings failure to comply with post MCAS agreements.
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Old 06-24-2024, 03:15 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
That's not how it really works in the legal system. Get arrested for murder, get tried and acquitted (aka Not Guilty), and then try to get back to your life and career as an "innocent" man and let us know how that works out.
That is not the legal system, nor is that a matter of legality.

Legally, one is innocent until proven guilty. Failure to prove guilt is legal innocence. That's exactly how it works. A pronouncement of guiltlessness is not necessary, as innocence is the default. Whether the trial ends in a mis-trial without a clear verdict or a conclusion, or whether one is acquitted, one remains innocent until proven guilty under the law.

How others treat the accused after the fact is a separate mattter and not a legal function. The fact is that one is innocent until proven guilty in court. Public opinion or "likes" are not the law.

Originally Posted by rickair7777
In other boeing news, two astronauts are now stuck on the space station. Criminal?
Cite the broken law.

Originally Posted by rickair7777
Or just the garden variety gross incompetence that we've all become numb to?
"To which we have all become numb."

You might have missed:
“We are taking our time and following our standard mission management team process,” Steve Stich, manager of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program, wrote in a statement. “We are letting the data drive our decision making relative to managing the small helium system leaks and thruster performance we observed during rendezvous and docking.”
https://www.newsnationnow.com/space/...ew-from-space/

As for "stranded," we need not be so melodramatic. The space program has always dealt with challenges, and delays. You're familiar with Apollo 13? STS-51-L? How about Apollo 1 and AS-204? The list is long and incomplete.

Last edited by JohnBurke; 06-24-2024 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 06-25-2024, 09:03 AM
  #29  
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Apollo/Shuttle is apples to oranges to the commercial crew capsule program.

Apollo was a cold-war endeavor, almost a hail-mary to show up the rooskies and beat them to what might have been the new high ground.

Shuttle was intended to be routine, and sort of got there but ended up too complex and dangerous for reliable and safe routine ops.

Commercial crew capsule is "supposed" to be very easy... leverage modern design and analysis tech to create a very affordable and reliable routine transportation. Very low ambition, revert from complex spaceplane model to tried and true capsule model. Shouldn't be hard honestly.

As to criminality, I guess that's up to DOJ:

https://www.reuters.com/breakingview...il-2024-06-24/

Although I've always felt that holding a corporation (ie "artificial person") criminally liable is BS.

Corporations don't commit crimes, peole do, and people should be held appropriately accountable if it rises to that level. Civil courts are the venue if you want financial penalties for torts or regulatory violations.
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Old 06-25-2024, 10:50 AM
  #30  
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There's nothing "easy" about going into space.

We face a myriad of challenges in atmospheric flight in proven airframes with hundreds of thousands, and millions of hours of fleet experience, from mechanical issues to operational errors.

Space operations are more tenuous with far less experience in type.
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