Airline Pilot Central Forums - take off and landing currency part 121

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take off and landing currency part 121

Well... This problem doesn't come often in the 121 world but I am getting close. I tried looking in the far/aim for 121 regs on takeoff and landing currency. Couldn't find it, do we still need to maintain 3 T/O day and night landings under 121 ops? Where is the REG on that for 121...

If you're an FO I don't think you have to worry about it, since the reg applies to acting as PIC.

The part 91 regs still apply to part 121 flying. It's three landings in 90 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by todd1200 (Post 468161)

If you're an FO I don't think you have to worry about it, since the reg applies to acting as PIC.

Carefule, trhere's some confusion here...

Under 121, both PIC and SIC must make 3 takeoff's and landings within the past 90 days... day, night, IMC, or VMC the conditions don't matter. This will provide 121 landing and IFR currency.

Technically the 91 rule does not apply, since 121 pilots do not have to do the night landings for night currency.

However...a current 121 pilot who flies GA under part 91 MUST meet all the usual part 91 rules. You can be 100% airline current but zero% GA current.

I guess my point is 91 rules apply to all flying unless superceeded by another reg. Examples are PIC emergency authority, careless and wreckless operation, ect. To answer the guys question, though, see 121.439 and 61.57

Quote:

Originally Posted by todd1200 (Post 468161)

If you're an FO I don't think you have to worry about it, since the reg applies to acting as PIC.

Don't think so... a few years ago when United's 747 lost an engine plodding out of SFO, they came very close to making a big mark on the hill. It was later found that the F/O who was flying had only kept currency by doing his landings in the sim. As I remember, the FAA said the sim could be used but it was not to be used continually for currency. More than a few CPs in various airlines had to actually go and (GASP!! fly a trip.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daniel0265 (Post 468100)

3 Takeoffs and Landings, yes, Day and Night, NO

What you're looking for (or should be looking for) is "Pilot qualification: Recent experience."

Quote:

Originally Posted by todd1200 (Post 468161)

If you're an FO I don't think you have to worry about it, since the reg applies to acting as PIC.

This kind of stuff is really much too important to just "think" about. Can you imagine the trouble a pilot, or an air carrier, could get into by taking your advice, and learning that it is absolutely incorrect? The thing is, it's not really that hard to consult the actual Code of Federal Regulations that we are supposed to know and follow.

The Code of Federal Regulations

Here's an excerpt:

§ 121.439 Pilot qualification: Recent experience.

(a) No certificate holder may use any person nor may any person serve as a required pilot flight crewmember, unless within the preceding 90 days, that person has made at least three takeoffs and landings in the type airplane in which that person is to serve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by III Corps (Post 468338)

As I remember, the FAA said the sim could be used but it was not to be used continually for currency.

"continually" ... hmm ... now, there's a technical term that I just don't recall having read in conjunction with recency of experience requirements. Again, "thinking" and "memory" aren't always the best guides. Let's continue the above excerpt where I left off:

The takeoffs and landings required by this paragraph may be performed in a visual simulator approved under § 121.407 to include takeoff and landing maneuvers.

That's pretty plain and simple. The paragraph goes on to describe how a person who loses currency can reestablish currency in the airplane, or an approved simulator. There is nothing to suggest that using the simulator "continually" is even discouraged, much less prohibited.

Mind you, we're not discussing what is prudent here, or what the NTSB might have recommended -- we're talking about the rules.

Yeah I just care about 121 flying not GA. So if I understand you all, I am good to go to fly 121 if I go over 90 days? Yes I am an FO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 468353)

3 Takeoffs and Landings, yes, Day and Night, NO

What you're looking for (or should be looking for) is "Pilot qualification: Recent experience."

This kind of stuff is really much too important to just "think" about. Can you imagine the trouble a pilot, or an air carrier, could get into by taking your advice, and learning that it is absolutely incorrect? The thing is, it's not really that hard to consult the actual Code of Federal Regulations that we are supposed to know and follow.

The Code of Federal Regulations

Here's an excerpt:

§ 121.439 Pilot qualification: Recent experience.

The takeoffs and landings required by this paragraph may be performed in a visual simulator approved under § 121.407 to include takeoff and landing maneuvers.

Mind you, we're not discussing what is prudent here, or what the NTSB might have recommended -- we're talking about the rules.

Geeze... OK i will just call the training department when that time gets near. Thanks for all the help though guys, seems like this is just one huge GRAY area.

121.439 seems to be the answer but I will just ask the company.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daniel0265 (Post 468354)

Yeah I just care about 121 flying not GA. So if I understand you all, I am good to go to fly 121 if I go over 90 days? Yes I am an FO.

I realize you were typing when I posted (and you may be posting while I'm typing), but I want to make sure we're clear here.

Your profile says CRJ-200 -- I'm pretty certain the FO is a "required pilot flight crewmember." As such, you must have 3 takeoffs and 3 landings within the past 90 days. (No day/night requirement -- anything works)

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daniel0265 (Post 468355)

..., seems like this is just one huge GRAY area.

It's not the least bit gray. Recent experience is absolutely required.

When's your next recurrent training scheduled? That should suffice for "3 and 3".

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daniel0265 (Post 468354)

Yeah I just care about 121 flying not GA. So if I understand you all, I am good to go to fly 121 if I go over 90 days? Yes I am an FO.

Sorry, no I was wrong. As everyone above has said, you need the 3 landings to act as FO, but you are ok to go more than 90 days without night landings.

My loft is in the same month I will go out of currency on the last week of nov. I am on RES and the last time I flew was the last week of Aug (4 day trip) and I have the month of OCT off. I will just talk to the CP when I get back and see if I can pick up a trip on open time. As long as I do get 3 landings by the end of NOV i will be good. Again thanks everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daniel0265 (Post 468397)

Remember it's three takeoff's and landings...just in case anyone asks. I only log landings and assume that I made that takeoff too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 468353)

Lecture.. er.. point taken. Not in the regs but I do know and remember at my old house, a number of personnel were maintaining currency via the sim and due to FAA 'guidance', maintaining currency solely via the sim was no longer permitted. The sim was allowed for two periods and after that, it was airplane or loss of currency. That may have been our POI, the Fed assigned to our training dept and company.. but the SFO incident caused a change at my airline.

It's not uncommon for us to suffer from "kneejerk" reactions to events such as the one you've cited. Increased scrutiny, closer attention to the details, heightened vigilance to insure that we don't fall victim to whatever it was that caused the event to occur in the first place. Sometimes those changes translate into NTSB recommendations, and on rare occassions they actually result in changing the rules. I'm not denying that things changed at your airline or that the FAA even imparted to your company through some channel that they'd like to see certain things done certain ways. All I'm saying is the question asked by the original poster can be answered by referencing the Code of Federal Regulations.

That's all.

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