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Flight time restriction: need clarification/informal poll

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Flight time restriction: need clarification/informal poll

Old 11-05-2008, 04:24 AM
  #11  
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Remember that its not 16 hours of duty. Its appropriate rest in the last 24 hours. That makes an absolute max "duty" of 16 hours(due to min rest of 8 hours), but there are cases where that "duty" could be restricted to less than 16 hours (comp rest for instance). Try not to think of it as duty, but as rest in the last 24 hours. The FAA makes no regard to "duty".
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Old 11-05-2008, 05:54 AM
  #12  
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As always, question is somewhat situationally dependent. General ROT if less than 8, you can press. Over 8 at SYR and you're done.
But, less than 8 at the end of a very long duty day, might be done....have to find a legal rest period in the preceding 24hours. Less than 8 at the end of a second very long day, almost guaranteed to be done thanks to the compensatory rest rule

read your FOM, might be contractually done.
read the FARs also, it's your career.

121.471 (g) A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time.
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Old 11-05-2008, 06:14 AM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by 250 or point 65 View Post
correct. furthermore, it applies to both block and flight time. You may not push past the time that a push from the gate plus the block time plus your duty off time, would put you over 16 hrs of duty. You may not takeoff if the expected flight time plus taxi time plus duty off time puts you over a 16 hr duty day. however, legal to start the flight, legal to end it (say you got delayed in the air).

Not quite. For whatever reason the FAA does NOT count the duty off time (15 minutes after block in) at the end of the day against the 16 hours. So for duty time, you just need to be able to block in from the final leg at or prior to 16 hours in order to depart on that leg.

As to whether the 15 minutes duty off time counts against your rest is debatable.

I think that is more contractual or policy than anything else, but has come to be seen as part of rest. The reality is that you must be free of duty for rest to start...sometimes that takes 15 minutes, but often not.
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Old 11-05-2008, 07:19 AM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by flyguyniner11 View Post
I always thought legal to start legal to finish a 8 hr flight day but a Capt here has a email from our POI saying that's not true and saying that it's exactly like the 16 hr rule so that has caused a lot of confusion at our base I got clarity from our director of ops who said legal to start legal to finish but people still don't believe it so I dunno
Believe our director of ops ... don't know who he got that email from, but he shouldn't go by that ... our director of ops is correct ... I distinctly remember him going over that with me when I started here (not sure if he was Director of Ops then).
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Old 11-05-2008, 08:15 AM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Not quite. For whatever reason the FAA does NOT count the duty off time (15 minutes after block in) at the end of the day against the 16 hours. So for duty time, you just need to be able to block in from the final leg at or prior to 16 hours in order to depart on that leg.

As to whether the 15 minutes duty off time counts against your rest is debatable.

I think that is more contractual or policy than anything else, but has come to be seen as part of rest. The reality is that you must be free of duty for rest to start...sometimes that takes 15 minutes, but often not.
What are you smoking? which company chief pilot told you that in order to get you to keep flying? Your company manual says it's duty time, your contract says it's duty time.... guess what, the FAA says it's duty time. If it was within the last 90 days, I bet the company self disclosed on you and just hasn't told you.... most will do that all the time.... and occasionally will tell you after they self disclose. ASAP it if within the last 90 days.

got to www.alpa.org and download a copy of the Flight Time Duty Time Guidebook.
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Old 11-05-2008, 12:27 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by kronan View Post
As always, question is somewhat situationally dependent. General ROT if less than 8, you can press. Over 8 at SYR and you're done.
Explain further please. Everyone else in this thread, included my DO, is saying I can finish the day even if I'm over 8, because it was scheduled at below 8 and there were unforseen delays outside the average trip blocks.

This is the key question I'm having.
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Old 11-05-2008, 05:54 PM
  #17  
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Default 14 CFR part 121.471 (a)(4) and (g)

121.471 (a) says "No certificate holder...may schedule any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time...if that crewmember's total flight time ...will exceed - ... (4) 8 hours between rest periods."

121.471 (g) says "A flight crewmember is not considered scheduled for flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations (detailed in 121.471(a)), but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time."

This is where "legal to start, legal to finish" comes from. Your DO is correct.
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Old 11-05-2008, 06:24 PM
  #18  
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14 CFR part 121.471 Flight time limitations and rest requirements for domestic operations is not that hard to understand.

First, please understand there is NO 16 hour "duty-day" defined in the regulation. It does not exist and in fact your "duty-day" may be less than 16 hours, either because of total flight time or compensatory rest requirements. It happens quite frequently. There is a 16 hour limitation in Supplement Operations (121.503), but not Domestic.

Two, there is NO eight hour daily flight time limitation. There is a limitation that says you may not fly more than eight hours between required rest periods (121.471 (a) (4)). However, you may exceed this limitation if delays beyond the control of the company have occurred up to the limitations imposed by 121.471(b) and (c). You may fly more that eight hours in a rolling 24 hour period. In fact, this happens quite frequently and is a key part of 121.471.

So how do you apply this on the line? It’s not that tough. Five steps:

1. As you sit in the airplane getting ready to go, take a look at the planned arrival time at your destination. Add in any known delays. Determine when you think you will be released at arrival (usually block-in plus 15 minutes). Call that time TIME B.

2. Using TIME B go back 24 hours in time. Call that time TIME A. The difference between TIME A and TIME B will always be 24 hours.

3. Between TIME A and TIME B, did you get a continuous rest free from duty of at least nine hours? If so, you’re good to go.

4. If you got continuous rest of less than nine hours, but more than or equal to eight hours, then you need to look back to TIME A and determine how much actual flight time, plus the flight time you are about to embark on, totals. If it’s less than or equal to nine hours (actual plus scheduled with known delays), you’re good to go. If it’s more than nine hours, you’re not legal for the flight.

5. Lastly, in step 4 if you totaled flight time less than or equal to eight hours of flight time (actual plus the scheduled flight with known delays that you are about to fly), you need to be able to start at TIME A and looking forward to TIME B find a continuous block of at least eight hours for rest. If you can’t, you are not legal to go.

Finally, if your flight time totals less than 8 hours and your rest was less than 9 hours, you're next rest period must be at least 10 hours. If your flight time totals 8 but less than 9 hours, and your rest was less 10 hours, your next rest must be at least 11 hours. And if your flight time totals 9 or more hours, and your rest was less than 11 hours, your next rest must be at least 12 hours. That rest must begin no later than 24 hours from the beginning of the previous rest.

Example: If you are required to have a 12 hour compensatory rest period, that means during the 24 hour rolling period containing that compensatory rest period, your maximum "duty-day", if you will, would be just 12 hours, not 16.

Flight Time – defined in 14 CFR part 1.1 as “ (1) pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;…”.

Duty period – it’s defined in 121.467 and in 135.273. While not specifically defined in 121.471, the FAA has consistently interpreted it for pilots the same way. “…means a period of elapsed time between reporting for an assignment involving flight time and release from that assignment by the certificate holder…” Note it does say “release”, not block-in.

The same holds true for Rest Period – “…means the period free of all restraint or duty…and free of all responsibility for work or duty should the occasion arrive.” The FAA has interpreted this to mean that receiving a phone call from the company does not interrupt the rest period and the rest period starts when the company “releases” you and ends when the company requires you to show.

Last edited by WEACLRS; 11-05-2008 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 11-06-2008, 06:15 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by MrBigAir View Post
Explain further please. Everyone else in this thread, included my DO, is saying I can finish the day even if I'm over 8, because it was scheduled at below 8 and there were unforseen delays outside the average trip blocks.

This is the key question I'm having.
I was making an unwarranted assumption, I was assuming that if you made it to SYR that late that you wouldn't be able to look back in the preceding 24hours and find a legal rest by the time you made it to your final stop....which isn't necessairly the case.


So, Mr Big, in your mythical 7.8 hour block time day, what would the scheduled show and release time's be? Assuming Day 1 for the initial pairing, with maybe a duplicate Day 2?????

Last edited by kronan; 11-06-2008 at 06:18 AM. Reason: additional comment
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Old 11-06-2008, 06:44 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Not quite. For whatever reason the FAA does NOT count the duty off time (15 minutes after block in) at the end of the day against the 16 hours. So for duty time, you just need to be able to block in from the final leg at or prior to 16 hours in order to depart on that leg.

As to whether the 15 minutes duty off time counts against your rest is debatable.

I think that is more contractual or policy than anything else, but has come to be seen as part of rest. The reality is that you must be free of duty for rest to start...sometimes that takes 15 minutes, but often not.
I don't think this is correct. If I'm on duty, I'm not resting. The company has stipulated that I am still on duty for 15 minutes after I block in. That means this time has to count for the 16 hr duty day. If I don't count it, then at the end of that duty day I will find myself with only 7:45 of rest in the last 24 hrs.

To everyone else who is complaining about this 16 hr interpretation:
Yes, yes, we all know that the true spirit of Whitlow is that you have to have 8 hrs of rest in any 24 hr period. However, that interpretation means that you cannot fly a duty day of over 16 hrs.
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