PIC & SIC questions
 

Ok, since I don't have access to the 135 thread, I will pose my questions here.

Do I have to meet Part 135 minimums & insurance requirements (they may be one in the same), to sit SIC during a charter flight?

Once the passengers disembark the a/c and say the a/c returns empty of passengers, is that leg considered 135 or 91? If 91, what qualifications must I have in order to sit as PIC?


atp

i dont know the answer but im surprised if you havnt gotten one out of the person thats running this operation.

Empty leg is part 91-appropriately rated in the aircraft. Insurance mins mean nothing as far as the far's are concerned. To be a true sic you must complete the operators training program and pass the checkride. If the operation does not require sic's then you may sit in the right seat (some places do this since pax may request a second pilot) but not touch the controls or log it.

Rama:

So, I need to check to see if the company that I'm interested in has an SIC program & pass the their checkride? Correct? If they do, then it's all gravy. Then, I would be able to log the SIC time towards my TT. Now, when the a/c empties and it's just me and the other pilot, then I could easily jump in the left seat (as long as I'm typed for that a/c) and fly as PIC? Right?

If not, and the operation only requires one pilot as you stated above, then I'm just there for the experience of seeing how that particular a/c is flown? Right?


atp

You seem to be on the right track. Keep in mind 135 carrying passengers for hire under ifr requires an autopilot or second pilot, vfr does not. You can log pic whichever seat you are sitting in, but many insurance policies require a checked out 135 pilot in the left seat.
Under 91 only 1 pilot can log unless the other is a cfi or someone is under the hood or the aircraft itself requires 2 pilots. The company or its pilots may not be enthusiastic about this. I haven't flown 135 in over 5 years so I am not up on the reg changes since then though I don't think these type of things have changed.

I'm assuming you want to do one of two things: either log pilot-in-command time or log time toward your flight time (note: there is no such thing as "total time"). Lets break this into two areas: First, the FAA regulations.

To log Pilot-in-Command time you must be in one of two situations. You must be the pilot designated as pilot-in-command as defined in 14 CFR part 1.1. You must hold the appropriate category, class, and if necessary, type ratings for the aircraft in question and be instrument rated if the flight operates under IFR. To be PIC usually requires that designation from the operator of the aircraft in some form of written documentation (dispatch release, rental agreement, job description, etc.), completion of the operator's FAA approved training program, and/or some other formal form of designation. You would know it if you had it.

The second situation falls under 14 CFR part 61.51. This section allows to you log PIC time for the sole purpose of applying "for a certificate or rating issued under this part..." (61.51(c)). 14 CFR 61.51.(e) says as long as you hold a sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot certificate (not an ATP), you may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which you are "...the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated...". Rated means holding the appropriate catagory, class, and type if necessary. If you are an ATP, this provision no longer applies.

So from an FAA standpoint, if you hold a commercial pilot certificate or less, with category, class, and if necessary, type, and you are allowed to manipulate the controls (i.e. fly the aircraft), you can log the time as PIC and Flight Time (and instrument, night, etc.) because the FAA assumes you're still building time for the purpose of an ATP.

If you are designated by the company as the PIC for the return part 91 flight, and you're appropriately rated (which you would be), then you can log the flight as pilot-in-command, flight time, night, instrument, etc.

Logging second-in-command time falls under two areas. To fly under part 91 and log second-in-command time, 1) Part 61.51 (f)(1) and 61.55 requires the pilot be qualified as stated in 61.55 and occupy a crewmember station in an aircraft requiring more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or 2) 61.51(f)(2) requires the pilot hold the appropriate category, class, and type (if necessary) for the aircraft, and that more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted. SIC qualifications under 61.55 are recent additions to 14 CFR (basically a copy from part 135) and are extensive. They basically require a formal training program approved by the FAA.

So if the aircraft requires two pilots by it's FAA type certificate or if the flight requires two pilots under the FAA regulations it is flying under, and you are rated (category, class, and type), and you find yourself in the right seat, and its a part 91 flight, you can log SIC, flight time, day/night, cross-country, but not instrument.

If the aircraft requires two pilots by it's type certificate and you meet 61.55, and its a part 91 flight, you may log SIC time.

If the aircraft is not a jet, or not over 12,500 lbs GTOW, it probably is single pilot certified and doesn't require a SIC - no logging SIC time. If it's a jet or over 12,500 lbs, you'd have to hold the appropriate type rating to log the time. Generally, unless the flight operates under part 121, 125, or 135, few other operations would allow for the logging of SIC flight time.

If the flight operates under part 135, you would have to meet the requirements of part 135 (training programs, recurrent training, check rides, etc. - you'd know it if you went through it) to log either PIC or SIC time.

Second - the insurance company. Even if the FAA allows it, the insurance company will probably force the operator of the aircraft to keep you out of the left seat, prohibit you from "manipulating the controls", or designating you as PIC until they have approved you. If it's your buddy's aircraft/company and he lets you go ahead, then it's his risk. But his insurance company probably wouldn't cover the cost of an incident or accident (which means you could be liable as well), unless there is a clause in the policy allowing him to designate other pilots at his digression to fly the aircraft.

Thanks WEACLRS. My plans are to find a KA200 SIC program/job after training and flight instructing for some time. At least that's the plan.:)




atp

Check out small 135 freight haulers in your area. That helped me build time when I needed it. Having friends and contacts in the right places can really help out in your career.

Hey thanks Rama. I really appreciate the response. I gone over the Part 135 charter flying scenario so many times that it was starting to become confusing. I like the layman's terms you used.

Thanks again.



atp

Good luck finding the job, you are on the right track and all above is true. One thing I must stress, is make sure you are getting paid, the customers are paying for you to be there, you should be getting part of that. I was getting $75/day for Insurance/Requested SIC work in a C421 or Be20, easy work, and on the empty legs they would let you fly it, but still from the right seat. I did this in conjunction with my full-time CFI job at the time.

I'm incorrect here. As an SIC you may log the condition of the flight, including instrument conditions. You may not log the approach for currency requirements unless you actually manipulated the controls (it was your leg).

See the following FAA interpretation (it's a bit dated, but still applies):

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/.../Carpenter.rtf

I think you're incorrect here also:It sounds like you are saying that acting as PIC as defined by FAR 1.1 (Part 1 PIC) is sufficient for logging PIC time. That's the part I think is incorrect.

I think the universe of logging PIC is contained in 61.51 and that, unless you fit into a 61.51 "box", there is no basis for logging FAA PIC time (for certificates, ratings or currency) just by being the "Part 1 PIC. "

There are only 61.51 boxes for a non-flying Part 1 PIC to log PIC time:

• "acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted." 61.51(e)(1)(iii)
• an ATP "while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate." 61.51(e)(2)

Neither of these would even be necessary if there was blanket authority to log PIC time by simply being the Part 1 PIC.

The FAA issue is complete different from the employment issue where many pilots log all of their Part 1 PIC in a separate column to have numbers that show their experience being responsible for the aircraft and the flight (rather than the time when, as a brand new private pilot who had only flown a CE-152, his uncle let him be the "sole manipulator of the flight controls" of his Meridian for .2).

BTW, I think the rest of your explanation is not only technically spot on but written in a style that is very clear and easy to follow.

In regards to your question in bold:
I don't think that an empty aircraft in your example necessarily is a Part 91 flight. Lets assume that someone, for some odd reason pays a 135 operator to fly an aircraft without passengers or cargo. The flight is paid for, regardless of what or who is onboard. It must then be flown under Part 135. Another example: A charter company in LAX is paid to fly a passenger LAX-PHX, drop him/her off and then return empty. The passenger was quoted, and charged for the airplane to return to LAX. Although the aircraft is "empty" someone paid for it to return to LAX and it is then a revenue flight and must be operated IAW Part 135.

:) I agree. I went through the FAA interpretations on their website and couldn't find any statement that says performing duties under the definition of pilot-in-command from part 1.1 is sufficient for logging PIC (that doesn't mean it's not there somewhere though). When I sat for a moment and thought about my flying and the logging of flight time, 61.51(e) and (f) does cover it completely.

When I teach this stuff I always try to remind my students to read the regs literally, too not read into them anything that is not there. And then to go find the FAA interpretations to see how they been applied. I should follow my own counsel!

I agree that's how it should be, but I know of 135 operators that fly their crews under part 91 for the first and last empty legs of the day so that the 14 hour duty day doesn't start until the pax have boarded.

Is that the norm or does it occur as an isolated event?

I mean, in most cases will a 135 outfit charge the customer for a return trip that's empty? I understand the economics of it, but is that the practice of the 135 industry?


atp

I see a problem here.

"Transportation, not local in nature, furnished by the certificate holder, shall not be considered as part of any required rest period."

Also, FAR 135.263(b) states "No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to ANY duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period."

Under Part 135, it's not really a 14 hour "duty" period that is important, it is the required 10 hour lookback rest period that is controlling.

Also, the part 91 ferry flight time (positioning leg, not going home leg) counts against the max flight time in the duty period.


Joe

No kidding...you can do all kinds of 91 flying, airplane cleaning, mop the hangar floor, etc AFTER the 135 duty is done. But not before, otherwise it starts your clock.

Same with 121.

I remember this interpertation coming up in the 1990s, making news in the trade publications, and then being abandoned.

135 positioning legs are considered to be operated under Part 91. At least in the two FSDOs in the Eastern Region that I have been under.

Yes, it is absolutely true that the positioning legs are operated under Part 91.

HOWEVER, according to FAR Part 135 regs, the positioning legs cannot be part of your required rest period, and Part 91 commercial flight time counts against your maximum Part 135 flight time. The Feds don't buy the idea that professional pilots jump in an airplane and fly empty to Omaha for free, and only then start getting paid.

Joe

Agree with all you say Joe. I was pointing out that you are not considered part 135 on a reposition.

The professional pilots didn't have to do a load manifest for the empty trip to Omaha, and they took off with an RVR of 300, but that is OK in this case too (maybe not smart, but legal)

The term PIC is obviously used to mean more than one thing. To a job interviewer, it means time when you were fully in command of all aspects of the flight. However, the logging of PIC time is addressed by the FAA in only one place, part 61. (The definition in Part 1 is included in the part 61 language.) If you are fully rated for PIC in the airplane and are sole manipulator of the controls (from either seat, revenue leg or not) it should be logged as PIC. (The recent change to SIC type ratings leaves some ambiguity about whether an SIC-rated pilot can log PIC time; that language needs to be cleaned up.)
Bottom line: your logbook time should be entered only as defined by Part 61. However, for the job interviewer, be prepared to differentiate those flights where you were not the pilot signed for the aircraft.

Bingo !!
 

I agree Qtip.

Bottom line; check your company Ops Specs. Granted, I come from a 121 environment but I've flown Part 135 and I believe Qtip is correct. In our 121 operation, every flight is conducted under FAR 121 regardless of who or what is onboard. I flew for a 135 operator whose Ops Specs dictated the same requirement.

Relief can be granted from FAR 121/135 duty time regulations by positioning an aircraft to a domicile/base after a revenue flight;however, the only relief is from the duty time requirements and the flight is still conducted under 121/135 regs. Again, check your Ops Specs if applicable. Otherwise, go with Qtips posting.

G'Day Mates