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Old 01-24-2009, 12:44 PM   #1  
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Default Flying beyond max duty period part 135

Let's say you are flying for a 135 unscheduled on-demand carrier, in a two-man crew plane, and you're reaching the expiration of your max 14 hour duty period (but less than the max allowed flight time). But you're running behind and can't make it all the way home. When you arrive at the last stop prior to the flight home your duty period expires. Common sense tells us to get a hotel and rest for ten hours before you jump back in the plane again. BUT, you find out there's no pax/cargo on your last leg home and therefore would be flying under part 91. Can you legally fly the last leg home by operating under part 91 even though you're well beyond your 14 hour duty period?

I say no but my company seems to think otherwise. What do you guys think?
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Old 01-24-2009, 01:26 PM   #2  
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If the leg is operated under part 91 then yes you can continue on.
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Old 01-24-2009, 09:43 PM   #3  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iflywinnebagos View Post
Let's say you are flying for a 135 unscheduled on-demand carrier, in a two-man crew plane, and you're reaching the expiration of your max 14 hour duty period...When you arrive at the last stop prior to the flight home your duty period expires....you find out there's no pax/cargo on your last leg home...Can you legally fly the last leg home by operating under part 91 even though you're well beyond your 14 hour duty period?...
This is a question that is often debated. I haven't had a chance to thoroughly research it, but here is a way around the issue. If you're tired, then just say so. If you are fatigued then you and the company are in violation of 91.13, if you are assigned and accept the flight.

Quoting Donald Byrne, FAA Assistant Chief Counsel:
"...it is a violation of FAR 91.13 for a certificate holder or a flight crewmember to operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another. Lack of rest of the pilot is certainly a circumstance which could endanger others, and it is not necessary that the situation devolve into actual endangerment for there to be a violation of FAR 91.13. A certificate holder who uses a crewmember with knowledge of his or her lack of rest may be equally culpable along with the flight crewmember...."
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...991/Bodlak.rtf

Also:
135.263 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All certificate holders.
(b) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to ANY duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period.


If you are interested in searching for a FAA Chief Counsel's (responsible for interpreting the regs) opinion directly on point, try this link.
Regulations

Last edited by SR22; 01-24-2009 at 09:53 PM.
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Old 01-25-2009, 04:54 AM   #4  
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I am familiar with two 135/91 companies and its is covered in both their ops manuals. Both have the same "answer." A Part 91 return is allowed but it must be requested by the pilots and then approved by the chief pilot. If anyone says they're too tired, an overnight is the answer. An overnight is planned from the beginning so if the pilots are too tired then they just go to the hotel without making any calls. To me it seems to be the right answer.

C9
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Old 01-25-2009, 12:55 PM   #5  
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Thanks all for the reply. I guess the key here is whether or not the pilots request the flight back (assuming they're fit to fly) or if the company assigns it.

Here's another twist to the issue: If the pilots fly back voluntarily under part 91, is the company still required to pay the pilots for this leg?

PS Can you get a feel for how shady my company is from my questions? haha
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Old 01-25-2009, 01:50 PM   #6  
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Well, you're going to get paid one way or another IMO, so yes they better pay you. If not, easy answer is you're going to overnight, and then they get to pay hotel, then also you'll lose XXX hours off your 8 for that next day. I completely agree that at that point, it is up to you as the pilot whether or not to continue on after the 14hrs as a Part 91 flight. As part of this, I do extend my 10hrs of required rest in the previous 24 from the time I get home though.

BTW, always calculate the return leg times towards your 8 in 24 rule. My boss tried doing that to me, but I'd say look, in the last rotating 24hrs I flew XXX and that puts me 1-3hrs over. Sometimes it sucked because I was well rested, but I've also had times where it's protected me.

In the end it's always about CYA(Cover your ___)

Love the avatar btw, nice work!
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Old 01-25-2009, 03:48 PM   #7  
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Dude,

Wow. A company THAT shady probably is cutting corners elsewhere too. Be careful.

PH
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:50 PM   #8  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewfflyer View Post
Well, you're going to get paid one way or another IMO, so yes they better pay you. If not, easy answer is you're going to overnight, and then they get to pay hotel, then also you'll lose XXX hours off your 8 for that next day. I completely agree that at that point, it is up to you as the pilot whether or not to continue on after the 14hrs as a Part 91 flight. As part of this, I do extend my 10hrs of required rest in the previous 24 from the time I get home though.

BTW, always calculate the return leg times towards your 8 in 24 rule. My boss tried doing that to me, but I'd say look, in the last rotating 24hrs I flew XXX and that puts me 1-3hrs over. Sometimes it sucked because I was well rested, but I've also had times where it's protected me.

In the end it's always about CYA(Cover your ___)

Love the avatar btw, nice work!
Let's be sure of what regs we are following. The going home part 91 flight is not subject to the 135 8 in 24 rule. For tomorrow's 135 flights, after your minimum 10 hour rest, that part 91 flight time last night counts against your rolling 8 in 24 limit.

Joe
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Old 01-29-2009, 05:38 AM   #9  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joepilot View Post
Let's be sure of what regs we are following. The going home part 91 flight is not subject to the 135 8 in 24 rule. For tomorrow's 135 flights, after your minimum 10 hour rest, that part 91 flight time last night counts against your rolling 8 in 24 limit.

Joe
Isn't that what I said? I protected myself and saying that I was 1-3hrs over the time, so even though i was rested I couldn't accept the trip.
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Old 07-19-2010, 09:32 AM   #10  
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Default Expiring Duty Period

A smart company operations manager would put in place procedures that define actions to take for this, i.e. some type of notification prior to reaching the "maximum" permitted duty day or flight time so that proper decision making can occur so that the mission is not dropped and pilots are not put in a situation where they have to make potentially bad decisions (not saying they would but it's the point of the matter). In the military you have this type of a procedure that helps the commander make a decision on whether the mission is vital enough to continue or whether the mission should be modified. Leaving this until the duty or flight period is about to expire seems ridiculous...but it sounds like that is the norm, unfortunately. As a business owner I would want some say in how this goes down.
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