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Spin Question
OK, quick question. I am training for CFI, and I have gotten my spin endorsement in the logbook. I'm wondering if it is ok to take a friend up, split the cost, and show him a spin. I am completely proficient, I just want to make sure it's legal.
Thanks! |
not unless you both are wearing parachutes. check the regs for spins. btw, if you need to know if something about aviation is legal, the regs are a good place to start. not that we don't like answering questions on here, but just an fyi.
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Trust me......you have a long way to go before you are "proficient" in spins. I used to teach spins in a Pitts S-2B and S-2C, a lot of CFI's that thought they knew what was what were surprised about HOW LITTLE they really know, including me at the time I was goig for my CFI back in the late 80's.....
Just be careful and wear chutes. |
Originally Posted by Sonny Crockett
(Post 617018)
Trust me......you have a long way to go before you are "proficient" in spins. I used to teach spins in a Pitts S-2B and S-2C, a lot of CFI's that thought they knew what was what were surprised about HOW LITTLE they really know, including me at the time I was goig for my CFI back in the late 80's.....
Just be careful and wear chutes. words of wisdom, you got there.... I got my tailwheel on the pitts, with a lot of hours in acrobatics and upset recovery; havent flown the pitts in a year and i sure miss it. |
When you did spins for your CFI training you were not required to wear chutes because this was a required maneuver for the CFI training. If you go up with a friend, it is not a required maneuver for training, and chutes are required.
You don't get to ask why this silly distinction exists, but the Feds say so. Joe |
Originally Posted by LucasM
(Post 617012)
not unless you both are wearing parachutes. check the regs for spins. btw, if you need to know if something about aviation is legal, the regs are a good place to start. not that we don't like answering questions on here, but just an fyi.
Originally Posted by joepilot
(Post 617029)
When you did spins for your CFI training you were not required to wear chutes because this was a required maneuver for the CFI training. If you go up with a friend, it is not a required maneuver for training, and chutes are required.
You don't get to ask why this silly distinction exists, but the Feds say so. Joe Spins not conducted in a training environment (IE - go up to do some for fun or show friends if you're not a CFI) do require a parachute, UNLESS you are the sole occupant of the aircraft. Advisory Circular 61.67C 301. SPIN TRAINING AND PARACHUTES. Part 91, section 91.307(c), prohibits the pilot of a civil aircraft from executing any intentional maneuver that exceeds 60° of bank relative to the horizon, or exceeds 30° noseup or nosedown attitude relative to the horizon, unless an approved parachute is worn by each occupant (other than a crewmember). Section 91.307(d) states, in pertinent part, that section 91.307(c) does not apply to flight tests for a pilot certificate or rating; or spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by a certified flight instructor (CFI) or an airline transport pilot (ATP) instructing in accordance with section 61.167. a. Section 61.183(i) requires an applicant for a flight instructor certificate or rating to receive flight training in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures. The applicant must also possess and demonstrate instructional proficiency in these areas to receive the certificate or rating. b. Because spin entry, spins, and spin recovery are required for a flight instructor certificate or rating, a person receiving instruction from a CFI (or an ATP instructing in accordance with section 61.167) need not wear an approved parachute while instruction is being provided in these maneuvers. This provision applies regardless of the certificate or rating for which the person is receiving training and also if the person is receiving instruction that is not being provided for the purpose of obtaining any additional certificate or rating. The instructor providing the training is also not required to wear an approved parachute while providing this flight training. c. Additionally, it should be noted that any pilot or required crewmember may perform a maneuver that exceeds the limits prescribed in section 91.307(c) without wearing an approved parachute, provided there are no other occupants in the aircraft or the other occupants are wearing approved parachutes. That said, I would not recommend taking a friend up until you are fully comfortable with your abilities. Also bear in mind that unless it's your own personal aircraft, a flight school might not look kindly on you doing spins in their aircraft without prior approval (unless it's an acro certified plane). It's tough on gyro instruments. Once again an example of legal, but not necessarily prudent. |
Anyone familiar with the AD issued for the C-152 prohibiting spins?
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Originally Posted by MEMpilot
(Post 617056)
Anyone familiar with the AD issued for the C-152 prohibiting spins?
There are two ways to comply with the AD. 1. Find out which of the two kits you need and replace the "suspect" parts. 2. Placard the panel to advise the occupants that no aerobatic maneuvers including spins are approved. Considering that the 150 is 52 years old I'd say this is much ado about nothing but it is what it is. |
Second Endorsement here...
The FAA used to require spins for a PPL. Due to numerous fatal training accidents, they deleted that requirement except for CFI's. Times change, people come and go, so at some point the powers-that-be at the FAA decided that maybe spin training was not such a bad idea after all. So what they did was left the existing regs in place (parachutes) but "reinterpreted" them to allow any CFI to give spin training to anyone without a 'chute. Spins are still not mandatory for pilot certs, but you can do them if you want (without parachutes with a CFI). The legal premise is that any pilot at any level of certification might want to earn a CFI some day, so the training is legit under that exemption. There is no law that says you have to have a CPL or ATP before you conduct training towards an instructor rating. They are safe enough without 'chutes...if you use the right airplane in the correct W&B envelope. A stock 172 will usually recover on it's own if you release the controls. |
Originally Posted by esa17
(Post 617063)
Yes, but it isn't the 152. There have been two C-150 incidents of the rudder jamming which prevented spin recovery. It has been a Service Bulletin for years and has finally become an AD.
There are two ways to comply with the AD. 1. Find out which of the two kits you need and replace the "suspect" parts. 2. Placard the panel to advise the occupants that no aerobatic maneuvers including spins are approved. Considering that the 150 is 52 years old I'd say this is much ado about nothing but it is what it is. as a side note - I'm pretty sure any gyro linked to an AP will be heavily damaged if it tumbles... could be wrong about that though. |
Originally Posted by borovy3488
(Post 616964)
1) I am training for CFI, and I have gotten my spin endorsement in the logbook.
2) I am completely proficient, I just want to make sure it's legal. Riiiiiight. You are training to be a CFI, now start acting like a CFI. Just because something is legal, does not mean its safe. You are now a risk manager. There is no way that the risk here justifies the reward. We hear maybe once a year about some private pilot taking his family up and killing them all. This is kinda like that situation. Know your skills and don't do anything that would make your or your friend's mom go through their worst nightmare. |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 617068)
Times change, people come and go, so at some point the powers-that-be at the FAA decided that maybe spin training was not such a bad idea after all. So what they did was left the existing regs in place (parachutes) but "reinterpreted" them to allow any CFI to give spin training to anyone without a 'chute.
The only thing that ever confused people was the "any certificate or rating" language, with some folks incorrectly thinking that you had to be "going for" the certificate or rating for it to count. |
Spin
In the 1950's every private pilot had to do spin training. At the time we nationally had around 300 stall spin accidents per year. After they ended the training requirement spin accidents have been steady decreasing to around 20 per year. The danger is not from the accidental spin but from spin training itself.
Spins are not something to mess with. The majority of spin accidents occur during maneuvering flight and not when in the pattern. To me that suggests that thrill seeking pilots went up to do spins that got away from them. Practicing spins does not make you a safer pilot. Spin awareness however does. It is a good idea to be exposed to spins as a CFI however you should leave them alone unless you are in an aerobatic plane with chutes on. Side note: I got my "no spin" AD in the mail last week and it was for the 150 and 152. SKyHigh |
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
(Post 617153)
... Spins are not something to mess with. The majority of spin accidents occur during maneuvering flight and not when in the pattern. To me that suggests that thrill seeking pilots went up to do spins that got away from them. Practicing spins does not make you a safer pilot. Spin awareness however does. It is a good idea to be exposed to spins as a CFI however you should leave them alone unless you are in an aerobatic plane with chutes on...
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Until the AD was issued as of late, I was incorporating a very tame spin into PPL training when we hit spin awareness for discussion. Of course, not being a sociopath, I asked the student beforehand if they would be interested in seeing one and wouldn't press the issue for those wanting to stay away from it.
Needless to say, I find it extremely valuable in training curriculum and find my student pilots have a much higher degree of knowledge pertaining to load factor, cross-controlled coordination, and the relationship of stall speed to bank angle, maintaining less than 30 degrees in the pattern and so on... Like others said, its definitely not something I want to 'experiment' with. My power-off, no flaps, one turn around is good enough for me. |
Originally Posted by Cubdriver
(Post 617297)
My take on it is the same but I would add that I think they are safe enough if you are current in doing spins in a 172 or similar. But you should ask yourself before doing them, how long it has been since you did this last. And if it is more than a few months you should probably get a short flight & ground school with an acro pilot. Active CFIs should do a few spins every so many weeks just for practice, alone or with a CFI, but not with a student.
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I just read the whole thread and I do not have much to add as most have hit it right on the money.
I taught unusual attitudes/acro for a few hundred+ hours and although you have done a spin everyone is right in saying that you are FAR from proficient in spins and spin recoveries to the point where you can scare the hell out of a friend. As yourself these questions: -How will the aircraft react in a spin with an aft CG? How will the recovery differ if at all? -Same question for a forward CG -If I enter a spin from the top of a loop and am upside down is it an inverted spin? How would you recover? -If you are in a steep turn to the left and enter an accelerated stall in a slip which way will the aircraft spin, how will it react and how will you recover? -What about a steep turn to the left in a accelerated stall skid situation? -The airplane is spinning and it starts to flatten out, what do you do? Just some things to think about that there is far more to a spin than a simple 1 G straight ahead power off entry. So, get a QUALIFIED instructor and get out there and get actually proficient and have some fun! |
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