The Good Morale Character For the ATP
 

Question for everyone out there. My wife is a teacher, one of the new teachers hired with her was recently terminated after having her teacher's certificate revoked for lack of good morale character. What would it take to have an ATP revoked under that?

Lying to the FAA.

There was a thread about this six months or a year ago. One case mentioned was a pilot that had his ATP revoked after his conviction for child sexual abuse.

Joe

Not to put too fine of a point on it
 

Moral, not morale, right? Unless she was the Cheerleaders Coach, then yeah, morale...

Does one lack good moral character if they listen to heavy metal and shave their head into a mohawk during big blocks of days off? I say unless its illegal, an employer doesn't have a leg to stand on.

To my knowledge, there is no background check associated with an ATP checkride.

I also know that there is no recurrent background check for people who already hold an ATP.

Where they get you is on the medical renewal. They ask about criminal convictions and arrests, and they will deny a first class medical if you have a significant conviction.

I would assume that the FAA would not dare to withhold a medical (or ATP cert) on moral character grounds without a conviction for something serious.

For example, these sort of things would probably not be an issue with the FAA

- Cheating on your spouse
- Hanging out with known criminals
- Radical political views
- Failure to attend church, or attending the wrong church

But watch out for the TSA, they can pull your tickets for national security reasons...which means whatever they want it to mean.

In the 70's a jump pilot, DC 3, mooned the jumpers as the plane went by on the taxi way. A lady, den mother, was there with cub scout troop.
She reported this and he lost his ATP.
The judge made a big deal about the fact that if he only had a commercial licenses this would not happen.

So much for due process and the Constitution....silly me.

Would not hold up today. The FAA would not be allowed to arbitrarily judge "moral character" based on regulatory language from another era. They know this, and will likely only go for the slam-dunk cases...where a criminal court has already made the determination for them, using copious due process.

It's really a flexible term. There have been various pronouncements though the years, but they tend to be couched in terms of "factors" to consider rather than black and white litmus tests.

From an FAA Chief Counsel opinion, 1979 – "A criminal conviction is not, in and of itself, grounds for denying a certificate on the basis of moral character. In determining whether a certificate may be issued, all relevant factors are considered. These include the nature of the felony for which the applicant was convicted, the number and frequency of the incidents involved, and the relationship of the incident or incidents to his responsibilities as a certificate holder. A conviction alone does not demonstrate a lack of capacity to display the required degree of care, judgement, and responsibility."

If you really want to do a survey of cases where the question came up, just go here: NTSB Opinions and Orders

Leave everything the way it is except put the words good moral character in the Words & Phrases box

It is true that single conviction might not disqualify you, but they are likely to drag you through the wringer in the process of making that determination if you have a serious misdemeanor or felony.

Interesting information. Thanks for the link.

With regards to legalities, and I'm not a lawyer, it appears as if the term is subjective in nature. i.e., there is no clear-cut, black-and-white definition of what constitutes "good morale character" with regards to the ATP.

I heard Sen. Wellstone's pilot had a felony conviction and he held an ATP.

Perhaps you missed my point. I was commenting on the TSA and pulling tickets. Which is a direct violation of due process.

Ooops, I quoted the wrong post. I was talking about the one before yours.

There are a few national-security situations which override normal due process considerations. The usual circumstance involves the need to keep national intelligence means and sources classified. The defendant and his lawyer are probably not cleared to even know the details of where the info came from, and in most cases could not be trusted.

Of course this should be limited only to those cases in which there are actual classified sources at stake, and not be carte-blanche for government agencies to do whatever they like with no accountability.

In the case of TSA revoking certs with limited appeal, I don't agree with that. There should be an independent review body to at least take a second look, even if you cannot give the defendant all the details.

Ultimately piloting is a privilege, not a right, so our certs do not enjoy the same protections as our life, liberty, etc.

If flying "is my life" and provides me the "pursuit of happiness" then maybe IT IS a right! Hummmmm.......makes one think..........Hummmmm.

USMCFLYR

Even if it's not, "it's a privilege, not a right" is a bit of a platitude. "Due process" also means fair treatment. That something is a governmental license does not mean that there is no due process protection, just somewhat less and based on differing standards.

Besides, "pursuit of happiness" is not a constitutional right. It comes from that anti-government document written by revolutionaries based on the teachings of liberal radicals – the Declaration of Independence. Never made it way into the Constitution.

I think you may have missed the intended **humorous** side of the post. (still can't find those icons on this computer - hmmmm again)

USMCFLYR

And you think that the reference to "anti-government document written by revolutionaries based on the teachings of liberal radicals" wasn't? (although it is accurate)

Although overall the process may seem objective, there's got to be some subjectivity in there somewhere amongst all of those cases that the FAA has ruled on.

And no, I have no axe to grind.....(as he rolls his eyes to the upper left...whistling).




atp

Of course there is. Absent a regulatory formula and a method of plugging in life events to result in a score (sort of like a credit rating but probably more akin to the Federal Sentencing Guidelines), there is always going to be an element of subjectivity.

ROFLMAO.



atp

Good Moral Character?
 

Recent meeting with FAA included discussion issue of new ATP ticket. It is appropriate to ask if applicant has ever had a felony conviction. A positive answer would preclude the designee from issuing the certificate without direction from the local FAA office/legal.

Are there new standards in the FARs for an ATP? Or is this some internal FAA/FSDO policy?

Administrative law is the wild wild west, as we're seeing.

I don't remember precisely, but you're not entitled to due process in the criminal or civil sense of the word—like, the Constitutional sense. What you are entitled to is at least some substantive due process: if your certificate is wrongly denied there are appeals processes that do extend all the way to the civilian court system. It just takes a while and a few rulings by NTSB and a few ALJs to get there.

I'm not saying this is right: this is simply how I understand it to be.