Cancelling IFR in Class B Airspace
 

If I am operating in Class Bravo airspace IFR, and I cancel IFR, do I retain my clearance to be in the Bravo airspace? (Assuming, of course, I am in compliance with FAR 91.155).

If not, how should I phrase my request to cancel IFR, contingent on having a VFR Class Bravo clearance?

If you're outside the Bravo when you cancel, I doubt that you are cleared automatically. If you are in the Bravo airspace when ATC accepted your cancellation, it would be hard for ATC to claim that you were required to disappear into non-Bravo airspace within a second (although with the FAA you never know).

But that said, there's no guarantee that even if you are ok when you cancel, ATC won't immediately tell you to get out. If you really want to stay within the Bravo and for some reason you really want to cancel IFR, your best bet is to ask in advance.

"If I cancel IFR, can you give me a Bravo clearance to...?" (not every request has standard phraseology)

Keep in mind that you DO NOT need to hear the words "Clear into class B". No where in the regs/AIM does it say you need to hear those words to enter the airspace. If you receive a heading/altitude assignment, this is your clearance into class B. Too often I keep hearing on the radio "Am I clear into class B???" when they clearly received one in the first place.

I respectfully disagree. While it doesn't say you need to hear the words, you do need an ATC clearance (AIM 3-2-3). For class C and D, you need 2 way radio communications (AIM 3-2-4). The AIM does go into great detail about what constitutes two way radio communication, and a heading/altitude assignment with the airplanes callsign falls under the two way communication.

If a heading/altitude/callsign readout is considered 2 way communications, and an ATC clearance is a step above establishing 2 way communications, it is reasonable to expect to hear "Cleared into the Bravo airspace."

You only have to worry about it while VFR anyway, and how often do you go into class B airports VFR? As I tell my students- it's better to get yelled at from ATC for double checking, than it is to get yelled at by the FAA for NOT double checking.

You need to review the definition and concept of an ATC clearance. This is what a lot of of student pilots are taught by their instructors. This wrong interpretation has been passed on to pilots over and over. (Don't mean to throw you under the bus) Why? Because a lot of pilots can't tell the difference between an ATC clearance and two way radio communication. So to be on the safe side, flight instructors tell their student to ask and hear the words "Clear into Class B". This is why ATC yells at pilots when they received a heading and altitude assignment and still ask if they are clear into class B!!! And yes, I do enter in class B ALL THE TIME without asking or hearing "Clear into class B". What is the difference? In most case I do get a more professional and expeditious service from ATC because they know who they are dealing with.

This being said, you are RIGHT also. If ATC doesn't care where you are going and just wants you to proceed VFR, this is not in this case an ATC clearance. So you need to hear the words "Clear into Class B or something similar to that effect".

Let me ask you. If you received a heading and altitude assignment and then the radio becomes cluttered. Are you going to deviate from this "ATC clearance" because you didn't hear "Clear into Class B" and you are just about to enter class B? I hope not. And this is exactly what may happen to your students - an FAR violation. You think you do them a favor and this might bite them in the a$% later on. Let me ask you another question, you are departing from an uncontrolled airport for an IFR-IMC flight which requires you to obtain a clearance before entering controlled airspace, do you hear in any of that "Clear into class E"? I bet you never did in a million.

No, but you did hear "Cleared to" when you receive your IFR clearance. That's your clearance into the controlled airspace under IFR.

I understand there is no specific regulation that required you to hear the words "cleared to" prior to operating in Class B airspace VFR. But how do you know you that you do in fact have a clearance without hearing "cleared though the Class B airspace"? What is your regulatory guidance that receiving a vector constitues a clearance?

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. And at least down here where I live, more often than not the answer to "Am I cleared through the Bravo" is as close to "Hell no" as a controller can get and still continue to be a controller—even if he's given you an altitude and a heading. For your reference, 14 CFR 91.131 reads:
All operations within Class B airspace, whether IFR or VFR, MUST be conducted under an ATC clearance (IFR, you'll have one, and you're good with the "Cleared to blah blah", VFR, you'll need to get one). You are not allowed to transit Bravo until you hear the magic words "Cleared through the Bravo airspace" or *similar*. C and D are "Prior radio contact", meaning ATC has called you by name. Completely different standard of contact.

If I'm reading it correctly, bubi352 is not diputing that a clearance is required to operate in Class B airspace, but is arguing that a vector from ATC that puts you into the airspace constitutes that clearance.

I'd sure want to see that in black and white somewhere before I relied on it in place of hearing "you are cleared."

Typically when I cancel IFR inside class B the controller will come back with "Cancellation received; cleared into bravo airspace fly heading XXX maintain XXXX feet. "

That's a clearance, which by happenstance contains two instructions. "Fly such and such" on its own is not a clearance: it's an instruction.

Yes but this instruction (altitude and heading assignment) in this case becomes a clearance because you can't deviate from it or would you?

I don't know; ask the FAA. I wouldn't bet my license on it.

I do know that you can't (1) operate an airplane contrary to an ATC clearance and (2) operate an airplane contrary to an ATC instruction except in an emergency. There is a difference, but I would ask the Feds themselves about it.

You are totally right. You ought to be cautious. I will try to get this in writing from the legal interpretation office of the FAA.

What I will say is you should always think a heading/altitude instruction as a way to keep separation with other traffic. You deviating from it because you were not supposedly "Cleared" could be potentially dangerous. So my point is, if you didn't hear those magic words "cleared into" but were given a heading and altitude instruction that put you on a course to enter class B, would you deviate from this heading/altitude instruction and circle around or would you follow his instructions? If you did venture just outside class B deviating from his instruction waiting for those magic words and with the luck on your side, you might be on a collision course with a 737 full of pax. Try to explain this to the FAA why you were deviating from his heading/altitude instruction.

Bottom line, I don't dispute at all that you should hear "clear into class B". You need in fact a clearance like everyone said. But you don't need too if you are given an altitude and heading instruction that puts you on a course to enter class B. That will constitute your clearance into class B. That's all.

YES you can deviate from it. What if we have a similar situation (frequency congested), but you need to turn to remain clear of clouds. Do you deviate from the heading? Heck yeah! Because not deviating from the clearance becomes a FAR violation. Remember who is SOLELY responsible for your flight.

If I'm not 100% sure, I am deviating from the instruction. Especially if I'm outside the Class B, turning to stay outside of it if you're not sure is reasonable, in my opinion. That's like holding your position if you're not sure you can cross a runway... it's just common sense.

Plus, I think the FAA would be hard pressed to violate you for disregarding an ATC instruction when you're OUTSIDE the class B.

Does a looming cloud ahead count as an emergency? No, not in my book. Does it require deviation? Yes, if VFR. Does looming airspace ahead that you're not sure if you can penetrate constitute an emergency? No, not in my book. Does it require deviation? Yes.

I think you may be technically correct.

But I have heard "cleared into the Class B" when getting departure instructions on the ground when getting ready to depart VFR from a Class B primary airport. If you can't assume it then, when can you assume it?

I've also been queried by a later controller what I was doing in the Class B (the clearance wasn't passed on) and was very happy there was no question in the tapes of the clearance being given.

So, if you hear something that doesn't say "cleared" I guess you're left with this choice:

• Take a few seconds to say, "Confirm Cessna 1234X is cleared into the Class Bravo" and take the risk that you didn't need to.
• Guess that you have the clearance and take the risk that you are wrong (or at least have to deal with an investigation).

I find that choice very easy to make.

I'm with him.

It is not clearly spelled out anywhere, the wording that does exist hints at an implied requirement for something more than radio contact, and in IFR operations you do need to hear "cleared to XYZ".

I have two friends at SOCAL and even they don't have a firm opinion. The concern is that if you are given a vector that takes you into into Bravo 10-15 minutes later and there is a traffic conflict, the controller could claim that he had not cleared you into the B.

If the vector takes you immediately into B, that would probably hold up as a B clearance. Probably.

Here's a question... what are you doing getting vectors to begin with? VFR and outside of Bravo, what gives ATC the authority to give you these vectors in the first place?

For the first and original argument, I'm still undecided. Whether or not you automatically gain a Bravo clearance upon canceling IFR in Bravo airspace. I would obviously assume so, but from a legal/FAR standpoint, I'm not sure.

As far as the second argument, I'm going to with the "Cleared to/into...." crew. A heading/altitude assignment, in my opinion, does not trump "those magic words." ... in the VFR world anyway.

If you asked for flight following, they can give you vectors. If you don't like the vectors you can drop flight following and do your own thing. But anytime ATC tells you to do something you risk 91.13 if you disregard them without good reason.

I'm sure. That would be ridiculous...if you cancel IFR while in B you are obviously cleared in the B. You were cleared in under IFR and you cannot instantly vanish when you cancel...unless you are Han Solo.

That's one of "those" arguments.

By definition, "Controlled airspace means an airspace of defined dimensions within which air traffic control service is provided to IFR flights and to VFR flights in accordance with the airspace classification."

And 91.123(b) tells us that "Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised."

Whether the two together mean that ATC can given you an instruction in any controlled airspace is something that gets argued. I've never seen a solid answer from the FAA.

There doesn't seem to be a relevant chief counsel's opinion on the FAA website. Considering the following though, I think I will continue to clarify that I have received a "clearance" into/through Class B, prior to entry, anytime I'm VFR (or shortly expected to be) unless I hear something to the effect of "cleared into Bravo". Controllers often voluntarily say this prior to being asked, so that must mean something. A heading and altitude assignment alone do not seem to make a "clearance".

From the AIM:
From the P/C Glossary:
P/C Glossary again:

I'm pretty sure Flight Following doesn't grant them authority to give Vectors. Unless you've Ident'd and gotten the aforementioned clearance. I've known them to give "suggested headings" under FF, which are not vectors at all, but exactly that..., suggested.

From JO7110.65S (This order prescribes air traffic control procedures and phraseology for use by personnel providing air traffic control services; Link to PDF http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...r/7110.65S.pdf):

ATC will tell you whats up when you cancel, if you are IFR and cancel and they want you gone they will probably vector you out. VFR, Mcartier is right suggested heading is not a vector; a suggested heading that flys you toward the bravo should be confirmed, since when did confirming anything w/ATC get you in trouble? Ill confirm it three times on the way there if I am still not sure, I dont care, Im PIC and I need to know.

I've got a question for you guys.

When you cancel IFR, doesn't ATC say something like "... radar services terminated, squawk VFR"? If you're in the middle of class-B when you cancel they aren't going to say that.

It seems to me in this situation the ball is in ATC's court - they have to give you some instructions. Either squawk (bla bla bla) and maintain your current heading, or get your little 172 out.

In the last case, pretty much all you'd have to do is descend a little bit and you're good to go.

They can give you vectors (suggested heading/ALT), it's up to you whether you accept them or not. But you had better let them know what you are going to do if it's something other than what they suggest. If you are on FF, it is assumed for practical purposes that you will cooperate...if you don't then 91.13 rears it's head.

...or don't cancel IFR in Class B, since all the big airplane drivers are also IFR, and having all the airplanes following the same rules tends to have a good effect on the controller's blood pressure.

In this case, I departed SMO on a climb to VFR-on-top clearance, with intent to cancel IFR and transition LAX via the SFRA. Controller didn't seem unhappy at all with my request; in fact after contacting a new controller to request FF after transitioning the SFRA, the new controller already had my information/destination, so the original controller had coordinated me with him. Maybe he was just in a really, really good mood?

I fly in SOCAL airspace under FF all the time, and I frequently get assigned vectors that do not contain the word "suggest."

Or, wait 3-5 minutes, clear class-B and cancel in class-E.

If you're walking with big bags of cash, you don't fire your bodyguard halfway through Central Park.

Anyway, the point of the original post was, do IFR vectors that just so happen to carry you through class-B imply class-B clearance.

Yes, because the aircraft is being operated under an Air Traffic Control clearance.

If you are IFR and have a clearance to take you to where you are going why cancel,, If you are in B and wish to operate VFR ask for the visual if landing or VFR on top direct to ,,, if transitioning. You typically save very little time or distance either way and don't have to worry about it. If you are outside and you cancel before entering you need to hear you are cleared into class B as your clearance is terminated when you cancel and VFR you need to be cleared to enter,, always. And never assume anything, If you have doubt ask prior to breaking a reg.

No one's arguing that, but the question is, do VFR vectors imply class B clearance. I still go with no. Best to err on the side of caution.

ATC yells anyway.

I'm with the majority. I'd rather get yelled at for asking for a clearance rather than getting hate mail from the FAA. Same with taxi instructions.

I've never even gotten yelled at. Quite the opposite. Once were were doing practice approaches at KFTG (under/near/virtually on top of) the DEN Class B. Our radioed missed approach instructions would bring us up into the B airspace*. My "Confirm cleared into the Bravo" received the friendly reply, "Oh yeah. You need that don't you. Cleared into the Class Bravo."

* It didn't have to. If we did a normal climb to altitude we would enter the B. But we could have leveled off, remained below the B, and then about 1 mile or so later, continued the climb.

For those who believe that heading and altitude = clearance, willing to act on that that implication a mile or so from the Class B surface area?

Well pin a rose on your nose.