Complex, & Hi-Perf Endorsements
 

When did the FAA start requiring these endorsements?

I think the Hi-Perf endorsement was around '97 or so, but don't remember if the Complex was the same time or if it was around before - I've heard old guys say they had complex sign offs years before and others say it was around the same time as the Hi-Perf one.

The reason I ask is I don't recall this when I was doing most of my ASEL flying in the early '80s, but then again, I wasn't flying Hi-Perf or Complex. I did fly my dad's Mooney, but always with him and never as PIC.

Digging back in the Federal Register, in 1997 the FAA "split" the endorsements for complex and high performance. However the Federal Register and the CFR aren't available on line before 1994. I can tell you there wasn't any endorsement in 1980.

The current FAR's tell when the cutoff date was, in the section which addresses HP and Complex endorsements.

The cutoff doesn't tell us when the requirement began. The current cutoff is 1997, which is when the current version of the reg (which separated complex and HP) took effect. The original high performance endorsement (which included what is now both complex and HP) goes back further than that.

I don't know when it all started but I have a copy of the pre-1997 version of Part 61. The "cutoff" date for the HP endorsement in that version is November 1, 1973. If they wrote the cutoff the same way then as now, then it suggests there was a HP endorsement requirement in 1973. And I know of at least one FAA Chief Counsel opinion from 1980 that refers to it, so it must have already been in existence.

On further review...

My 1980 comment is in error. I just looked through my Log Book Pro last night and there was nothing in the remarks section when I got my commercial. But I don't have any endorements in it.

Looking in an old reg book from 1974 (with both the old and new Part 61s) the prior to 01Nov74 61 has nothing about high performance or complex. The "new" 61.31 (e) says, "A person holding a private or commercial pilot certificate may not act as pilot in command of an airplane that has more than 200 horsepower, or that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable propeller, unless he has recieved flight instruction from an authorized instructor who has certified in his his logbook that he is competent to pilot an airplane that has more than 200 horsepower, or that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable propeller, as the case may."

The follow-on to my original is that I'm looking at a Mooney right now and wondering if I'll now need to get a complex sign off...

I have a current ATP ME, but only PPL for ASEL...why is it so hard to figure out the FARS? I've got time in the Mooney from early '80s...

If I get the plane, I'd probably get a CFI to go with me for a couple hours anyway, just to make myself feel better - probably get the endorsement then and eliminate any doubt.

One of the things they added in 1997 is to require ATPs to have the endorsement. But one sign off applies to SEL and MEL. So when did you get your COMM or ATP? The sign off should have been part of your training if it was after 1997. If you logged PIC in a complex airplane before 97 you're grandfathered.

Comm was mil-comp in '93 and I have time in the Mooney in '93 & '95 that could be logged as PIC. I need to dig in the FARs a bit better to see the verbiage for grandfathering complex...

Interesting. Yes that is the language but apparently the reg in 1974 didn't have a heading for 61.31(e). In my later dated copy, the reg has a heading:

"(e) High performance airplanes. A person holding..."

Looks like that heading was added later.

It wan't until the 1997 revision that the term high-performance or complex appears in the body of the reg itself.

Since there are no dates involved, how do you know if you're grandfathered or not?

If you have even just a multi rating, you are covered. Prime example of grandfathering; I had a fair amount of time in C-421's before there was ever a high altitude sign-off. So I never needed to get that sign-off for high altitude and pressurization.

The high-perf endorsement is for aircraft with MORE than 200 H.P. Used to be an Arrow would qualify, but no more. The Arrow qualifies, as well as the Mooney and others, for a complex, because of the retractable gear.

I started flying in 1973, forgive me now cuz I am old, but I do seem to remember that the High-performance and complex were generally signed off in one endorsement back then.

I think it used to say 200HP or more and now it says more than 200HP - which eliminated everything with an IO-360 at 200HP...a good thing. Seems like most things with more than 200HP are more utility planes than what we might traditionally think of...

This is what my preliminary research has shown - they were combined, but without as much strict definition it seems. I had one old timer tell me he got a sign off for a plane with flaps, and then another sign off for a plane with electric flaps - both as "complex"....and he told me the complex and hi-perf were combined prior to '97. So, it seems to me that there was some "interpretation" and "judgement" allowed prior to the stricter definitions we have now.

I'd love to assume that since I have an ATP, I'm exempt/grandfathered/whatever for complex (and maybe hi-perf, although I don't "need" that in the immediate foreseeable future). Or that since I got my mil-comp commercial in '93 I'm grandfathered. Or....whatever. Makes sense to me that I'm grandfathered, but....

I'm probably over-thinking this. And, like I said before, if I buy this plane, I'll likely get a couple hours with a CFI just to make myself comfortable (haven't flown a Mooney since '95 and, while I'm sure I could "figure it out", it'd probably be best to get someone to go with me at least for a few bounce & goes around the pattern if nothing else) and I can get an endorsement at that time...