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Logging XC according to Orlando FSDO

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Logging XC according to Orlando FSDO

Old 02-07-2013, 05:53 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by jabr800 View Post
Hey Squak87,

I agree with what you are saying.
In our scenario, it made no sense to "Fight City Hall".
Nothing in this business is cheap, as I'm sure you have already found out!
I'm sure like others have already said, there is little to nothing to support Orlando's thinking on this one.
Good luck on your training.
I left an opening at Big Brown for you, if your timing is right!

Jabr800
Training is never over, I work toward my ATP XC at the moment and I don't deduct any time for ground ops. However, my students who are working toward their CPL forced to deduct this 0.2 for each landing and as I mentioned before I completely disagree with that fact. The other day I spoke to an aviation attorney and he promised to check the issue for me... We'll see
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
True, but I left out the part of the regs that does say "in a manner acceptable to the administrator", that gives the FSDO a wide berth...
A FSDO is not "the administrator." They have no authority for a wide berth. Making up their own regs is a misuse of power, not an act of authority. Big difference between the two.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt View Post
A FSDO is not "the administrator." They have no authority for a wide berth. Making up their own regs is a misuse of power, not an act of authority. Big difference between the two.
They most certainly are The Administrator. The safety inspectors are "The Administrator". Everything that says "The Administrator" has been legally interpreted to mean The Administrator or his representative. Just about anyone working for the FAA in an official capacity is. :) If you have a court case, god forbid, it will be labeled John Smith vs. The Administrator. I'm not trying to scare here, it's just the truth, and it's good for all of us to know. This is how they are able to get air carriers and others to make safety changes when it's difficult to tell if they are really in compliance with a rule or best safety practice, avoiding pencil-whipping, etc. As you see above, it's not grounds for some sort of action against a pilot, but it could be grounds for "not accepting" an 8710 application, etc.

Last edited by JamesNoBrakes; 02-11-2013 at 04:01 AM.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:03 AM
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FAA inspectors acting under the authority of the Administrator carry that authority in their duties. Bear in mind that the duty issued the Administrator is under an Act of Congress (as amended). Each representative carries the full extent of the authority delegated under the Administrator.

Don't expect the FAA Administrator to show up on your ramp, and inspect you. Or correspond with you. That's why FSDO's are set up throughout the country with inspectors and personnel to represent the Administrator.

An Inspector does not carry all the duties and responsibilities of the Administrator, but he or she does carry the full authority of the Administrator insofar as the duties delegated and assigned.

Among the duties not assigned is interpretation of regulation; that's assigned through the Regional and Chief legal counsel's offices. That said, the Inspector carries a lot of latitude in initiating enforcement action and application of the regulation. Until their word is challenged under an ALJ, the word is the law. That is to say, much like enforcement action, the FAA inspector sets the rule at the local level, and if one doesn't like it one can kick it up the chain...but it's always a matter of guilty until proven innocent, and it's up to you to do the proving by appealing and then making the case. If the FAA is simply administering and not taking enforcement action, there's no particular appeal process, although you can go to region to seek assistance.

Use some care in the politics of how the matter is handled, as you still need to deal with the local FSDO.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:21 PM
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This sounds like a good case to get AOPA cracking on. Anyone affected by this a member?
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnBurke View Post
An Inspector does not carry all the duties and responsibilities of the Administrator, but he or she does carry the full authority of the Administrator insofar as the duties delegated and assigned.

Among the duties not assigned is interpretation of regulation;
Exactly. FSDO inspectors are not "the Administrator" any more than the police office walking the beat is "the Mayor." FAA Inspectors are agents and representatives of the Administrator with limited duties and authority (but with the power to make your life miserable).

Of course, Inspector = Administrator is a fun visualization, especially when you've watched "the Administrator" argue with "himself" during an enforcement investigation.
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt View Post
Exactly. FSDO inspectors are not "the Administrator" any more than the police office walking the beat is "the Mayor." FAA Inspectors are agents and representatives of the Administrator with limited duties and authority (but with the power to make your life miserable).

Of course, Inspector = Administrator is a fun visualization, especially when you've watched "the Administrator" argue with "himself" during an enforcement investigation.
That is getting off track and straying somewhat from what is correct. There are those excerpts in the regulations that say "in a manner acceptable to the administrator" to give the inspector the latitude necessary to carry out the role of "the administrator". If someone were to bring in a logbook that doesn't make sense or in some other way doesn't pass the "reasonable test", this gives the inspector the latitude to reject the application, as an example. Now if that constitutes a breach of authority or something that you feel SHOULD pass the reasonable test, then you can appeal to region or regional counsel. Carrying out official duties means they are acting as "the administrator".

"A person authorized by the administrator" (this is referring to inspectors authorizing DPEs, instructors, etc)

"documentation acceptable to the administrator" (gov. ID, there is further guidance for "the administrator" beyond just what is in the regs)

" Each person who holds an airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization, or license required by this part must present it and their photo identification as described in paragraph (a)(2) of this section for inspection upon a request from:

(1) The Administrator; (this is referring to the inspector)
(2) An authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board;
(3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer; or
(4) An authorized representative of the Transportation Security Administration."

etc.

I agree it's a "strange" way to write rules and view them, but this is how it's written and interpreted. I say this to try and help, as the legal context is the most important part to think about. Part 61 doesn't even mention inspectors until later on in the ATP section.
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Old 09-23-2016, 08:18 AM
  #18  
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I know this is a zombie thread but I've had lively discussions with two Orlando FSDO inspectors claiming this and I took them to the cleaners with the FAR-AIM.
On my phone right now so can't look it up but FAA council has also ruled on this.
Hobbs time is an FAA accepted way of logging flight time.
So when the Hobbs runs you are authorized to log it.
They also tried to tell me you couldn't do maneuvers during a cross country.
Eg...a 100 mile XC and you slow boat it at 90kts instead of 120 and you do ground ref maneuvers on the way.
Ends up being a two hour flight instead of .9
That's all XC buddy, and legally so.
The Orlando FSDO suffers from a severe case of "tribal law".
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Old 09-24-2016, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
True, but I left out the part of the regs that does say "in a manner acceptable to the administrator", that gives the FSDO a wide berth, although it could be knocked down by a legal ruling. I'm talking about before it goes to legal.
It's already gone legal.

Acceptable to the Administrator is determined by the FAA Chief and Regional Legal counsel, not at the FSDO level. Inspectors at the FSDO level have authority to administer the program in accordance with the regulation, but zero authority to interpret the regulation. Where they attempt to do so incorrectly, there are sources to which one can turn.

In the case of the question posed by the original poster, ample legal interpretations already exist, such that there is no grey area here. That an inspector at the Orlando FSDO states otherwise is irrelevant and easily dismissed, given the preponderance of standing legal opinions already available to the public straight from the office of the FAA Chief Legal Counsel.

The inspector at the FSDO level has NO authority to attempt to administer the program contrary to the will and interpretation of the Administrator, which is delegated to the Chief and Regional Legal Counsels.
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Old 09-24-2016, 03:48 PM
  #20  
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If I recall correctly from a previous discussion with a DPE I know, this stemmed from issues where the math just didn't add up. There were several cases where the cross country flights just couldn't have been accomplished according to simple time/speed/distance calculations. Add the lengthy time spent on the ground at many of the airports from which the name brand schools are located and it became quite apparent that something was fishy.
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