Logging XC according to Orlando FSDO
#11
Hey Squak87,
I agree with what you are saying.
In our scenario, it made no sense to "Fight City Hall".
Nothing in this business is cheap, as I'm sure you have already found out!
I'm sure like others have already said, there is little to nothing to support Orlando's thinking on this one.
Good luck on your training.
I left an opening at Big Brown for you, if your timing is right!
Jabr800
I agree with what you are saying.
In our scenario, it made no sense to "Fight City Hall".
Nothing in this business is cheap, as I'm sure you have already found out!
I'm sure like others have already said, there is little to nothing to support Orlando's thinking on this one.
Good luck on your training.
I left an opening at Big Brown for you, if your timing is right!
Jabr800
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 826
A FSDO is not "the administrator." They have no authority for a wide berth. Making up their own regs is a misuse of power, not an act of authority. Big difference between the two.
#13
They most certainly are The Administrator. The safety inspectors are "The Administrator". Everything that says "The Administrator" has been legally interpreted to mean The Administrator or his representative. Just about anyone working for the FAA in an official capacity is. :) If you have a court case, god forbid, it will be labeled John Smith vs. The Administrator. I'm not trying to scare here, it's just the truth, and it's good for all of us to know. This is how they are able to get air carriers and others to make safety changes when it's difficult to tell if they are really in compliance with a rule or best safety practice, avoiding pencil-whipping, etc. As you see above, it's not grounds for some sort of action against a pilot, but it could be grounds for "not accepting" an 8710 application, etc.
Last edited by JamesNoBrakes; 02-11-2013 at 04:01 AM.
#14
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,926
FAA inspectors acting under the authority of the Administrator carry that authority in their duties. Bear in mind that the duty issued the Administrator is under an Act of Congress (as amended). Each representative carries the full extent of the authority delegated under the Administrator.
Don't expect the FAA Administrator to show up on your ramp, and inspect you. Or correspond with you. That's why FSDO's are set up throughout the country with inspectors and personnel to represent the Administrator.
An Inspector does not carry all the duties and responsibilities of the Administrator, but he or she does carry the full authority of the Administrator insofar as the duties delegated and assigned.
Among the duties not assigned is interpretation of regulation; that's assigned through the Regional and Chief legal counsel's offices. That said, the Inspector carries a lot of latitude in initiating enforcement action and application of the regulation. Until their word is challenged under an ALJ, the word is the law. That is to say, much like enforcement action, the FAA inspector sets the rule at the local level, and if one doesn't like it one can kick it up the chain...but it's always a matter of guilty until proven innocent, and it's up to you to do the proving by appealing and then making the case. If the FAA is simply administering and not taking enforcement action, there's no particular appeal process, although you can go to region to seek assistance.
Use some care in the politics of how the matter is handled, as you still need to deal with the local FSDO.
Don't expect the FAA Administrator to show up on your ramp, and inspect you. Or correspond with you. That's why FSDO's are set up throughout the country with inspectors and personnel to represent the Administrator.
An Inspector does not carry all the duties and responsibilities of the Administrator, but he or she does carry the full authority of the Administrator insofar as the duties delegated and assigned.
Among the duties not assigned is interpretation of regulation; that's assigned through the Regional and Chief legal counsel's offices. That said, the Inspector carries a lot of latitude in initiating enforcement action and application of the regulation. Until their word is challenged under an ALJ, the word is the law. That is to say, much like enforcement action, the FAA inspector sets the rule at the local level, and if one doesn't like it one can kick it up the chain...but it's always a matter of guilty until proven innocent, and it's up to you to do the proving by appealing and then making the case. If the FAA is simply administering and not taking enforcement action, there's no particular appeal process, although you can go to region to seek assistance.
Use some care in the politics of how the matter is handled, as you still need to deal with the local FSDO.
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 826
Of course, Inspector = Administrator is a fun visualization, especially when you've watched "the Administrator" argue with "himself" during an enforcement investigation.
#17
Exactly. FSDO inspectors are not "the Administrator" any more than the police office walking the beat is "the Mayor." FAA Inspectors are agents and representatives of the Administrator with limited duties and authority (but with the power to make your life miserable).
Of course, Inspector = Administrator is a fun visualization, especially when you've watched "the Administrator" argue with "himself" during an enforcement investigation.
Of course, Inspector = Administrator is a fun visualization, especially when you've watched "the Administrator" argue with "himself" during an enforcement investigation.
"A person authorized by the administrator" (this is referring to inspectors authorizing DPEs, instructors, etc)
"documentation acceptable to the administrator" (gov. ID, there is further guidance for "the administrator" beyond just what is in the regs)
" Each person who holds an airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization, or license required by this part must present it and their photo identification as described in paragraph (a)(2) of this section for inspection upon a request from:
(1) The Administrator; (this is referring to the inspector)
(2) An authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board;
(3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer; or
(4) An authorized representative of the Transportation Security Administration."
etc.
I agree it's a "strange" way to write rules and view them, but this is how it's written and interpreted. I say this to try and help, as the legal context is the most important part to think about. Part 61 doesn't even mention inspectors until later on in the ATP section.
#18
I know this is a zombie thread but I've had lively discussions with two Orlando FSDO inspectors claiming this and I took them to the cleaners with the FAR-AIM.
On my phone right now so can't look it up but FAA council has also ruled on this.
Hobbs time is an FAA accepted way of logging flight time.
So when the Hobbs runs you are authorized to log it.
They also tried to tell me you couldn't do maneuvers during a cross country.
Eg...a 100 mile XC and you slow boat it at 90kts instead of 120 and you do ground ref maneuvers on the way.
Ends up being a two hour flight instead of .9
That's all XC buddy, and legally so.
The Orlando FSDO suffers from a severe case of "tribal law".
On my phone right now so can't look it up but FAA council has also ruled on this.
Hobbs time is an FAA accepted way of logging flight time.
So when the Hobbs runs you are authorized to log it.
They also tried to tell me you couldn't do maneuvers during a cross country.
Eg...a 100 mile XC and you slow boat it at 90kts instead of 120 and you do ground ref maneuvers on the way.
Ends up being a two hour flight instead of .9
That's all XC buddy, and legally so.
The Orlando FSDO suffers from a severe case of "tribal law".
#19
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,926
Acceptable to the Administrator is determined by the FAA Chief and Regional Legal counsel, not at the FSDO level. Inspectors at the FSDO level have authority to administer the program in accordance with the regulation, but zero authority to interpret the regulation. Where they attempt to do so incorrectly, there are sources to which one can turn.
In the case of the question posed by the original poster, ample legal interpretations already exist, such that there is no grey area here. That an inspector at the Orlando FSDO states otherwise is irrelevant and easily dismissed, given the preponderance of standing legal opinions already available to the public straight from the office of the FAA Chief Legal Counsel.
The inspector at the FSDO level has NO authority to attempt to administer the program contrary to the will and interpretation of the Administrator, which is delegated to the Chief and Regional Legal Counsels.
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Admiral
Posts: 726
If I recall correctly from a previous discussion with a DPE I know, this stemmed from issues where the math just didn't add up. There were several cases where the cross country flights just couldn't have been accomplished according to simple time/speed/distance calculations. Add the lengthy time spent on the ground at many of the airports from which the name brand schools are located and it became quite apparent that something was fishy.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Bellanca
Flight Schools and Training
32
02-26-2011 02:18 PM
Chris
Flight Schools and Training
14
12-21-2008 03:08 AM