Will more pilots be tempted to lie now?
12-21-2013, 05:02 AM
#1
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Will more pilots be tempted to lie now?
Unfortunately, I know, and have heard, of several pilots who accelerated their aviation careers tremendously by lying about their flight experience when they were hired by several major 121 employers long ago.
Do you know, or have you heard of such individuals as well? If so, feel free to chime in.........
It seems to me that with:
1-New ATP & crew rule changes,
2-The greater difficulty in cracking that 1,500 hour mark quickly,
3-The slowdown in primary flight training nationwide and,
4-The hiring wave that had started,
temptation to "buck the system" is more likely.
15 years ago, I did well enough during an evaluation flight in a 1967 Lear 24B to be scheduled to go to Lear 60 school. I would have much rather preferred operating a brand new, EFIS equipped airplane instead of risking my life in a 20 series EPR equipped turbojet airplane as old as me. But, my conscience would not allow me to "fudge" my way into a far safer, more advanced & more lucrative position.
What safeguards do the 121 operators implement to weed out dishonest pilots who fudge on their flight experience? I would hope a methodogy exists to root out "Parker Pen" time builders or do the airlines just not go that deeply still to this day?
Tailwinds!
HD
Do you know, or have you heard of such individuals as well? If so, feel free to chime in.........
It seems to me that with:
1-New ATP & crew rule changes,
2-The greater difficulty in cracking that 1,500 hour mark quickly,
3-The slowdown in primary flight training nationwide and,
4-The hiring wave that had started,
temptation to "buck the system" is more likely.
15 years ago, I did well enough during an evaluation flight in a 1967 Lear 24B to be scheduled to go to Lear 60 school. I would have much rather preferred operating a brand new, EFIS equipped airplane instead of risking my life in a 20 series EPR equipped turbojet airplane as old as me. But, my conscience would not allow me to "fudge" my way into a far safer, more advanced & more lucrative position.
What safeguards do the 121 operators implement to weed out dishonest pilots who fudge on their flight experience? I would hope a methodogy exists to root out "Parker Pen" time builders or do the airlines just not go that deeply still to this day?
Tailwinds!
HD
Last edited by Hawker Driver; 12-21-2013 at 05:20 AM. Reason: Added point.
12-21-2013, 06:06 AM
#2
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,549
There always have been and their always will be dudes who pad their logbook. I personally wouldn't do it, but if someone wants to take the chance of being called out, goodluck.
I really don't see why this is such a worry. When I first started flying, dudes weren't even getting looked at until they had >1500 hours. I remember a lot of the guys getting hired at a regional had around 2000 TT and 3-400 ME (spending 2ish years after college to get there). This was really the norm for a while. Yet they still managed to get the hours. When I was trying to get hired at a regional no one was getting looked at unless you had 1000/100 or greater, and we thought that was a good deal. Then all the sudden kids were getting hired at ridiculous times like 3-400TT and a wet multi certificate. Now when the times go back up they all think it's not fair or undoable?
There are tons of ways to build TT, you just have to be willing to get it. The last 5ish years have made everyone lazy because they could just hang around their flight school, get a few hundred hours instructing and get hired at an airline with the location of their choice. Get your commercial, go tow banners or fly aerial survey over the summer, while instructing at your flight school during the school year. Don't be afraid to move away to get jobs, you may just have fun and learn a lot.
I really don't see why this is such a worry. When I first started flying, dudes weren't even getting looked at until they had >1500 hours. I remember a lot of the guys getting hired at a regional had around 2000 TT and 3-400 ME (spending 2ish years after college to get there). This was really the norm for a while. Yet they still managed to get the hours. When I was trying to get hired at a regional no one was getting looked at unless you had 1000/100 or greater, and we thought that was a good deal. Then all the sudden kids were getting hired at ridiculous times like 3-400TT and a wet multi certificate. Now when the times go back up they all think it's not fair or undoable?
There are tons of ways to build TT, you just have to be willing to get it. The last 5ish years have made everyone lazy because they could just hang around their flight school, get a few hundred hours instructing and get hired at an airline with the location of their choice. Get your commercial, go tow banners or fly aerial survey over the summer, while instructing at your flight school during the school year. Don't be afraid to move away to get jobs, you may just have fun and learn a lot.
12-21-2013, 06:59 AM
#3
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Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
People lie when they have enough pressure on them to cause abandonment of values, which is why criminal confessions obtained under great pressure are not reliable. But with logbooks, there is no where near as much pressure to cause anything like that and freewill remains the strongest force at work. Some will always choose lie in no matter what, a few actually enjoy it, but most people value their integrity and are willing to work hard for it. I do not see much change in this case. A small one at most.
It took ten years of honest flight for my logbook to arrive at 1500 hours and every single hour was logged faithfully, something I am proud of. At one point I was unemployed and still short 90 hours of cross country time to meet ATP minimums, and even in that condition I chose to rent an airplane at $60 an hour and log the time honestly. The cost of that honesty was $5400. I would do it again even though my wage in airline work started at $25k a year and some people said I was nuts at the time.
It took ten years of honest flight for my logbook to arrive at 1500 hours and every single hour was logged faithfully, something I am proud of. At one point I was unemployed and still short 90 hours of cross country time to meet ATP minimums, and even in that condition I chose to rent an airplane at $60 an hour and log the time honestly. The cost of that honesty was $5400. I would do it again even though my wage in airline work started at $25k a year and some people said I was nuts at the time.
12-21-2013, 05:18 PM
#5
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Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,278
Originally Posted by crewdawg
There always have been and their always will be dudes who pad their logbook. I personally wouldn't do it, but if someone wants to take the chance of being called out, goodluck.
I really don't see why this is such a worry. When I first started flying, dudes weren't even getting looked at until they had >1500 hours. I remember a lot of the guys getting hired at a regional had around 2000 TT and 3-400 ME (spending 2ish years after college to get there). This was really the norm for a while. Yet they still managed to get the hours. When I was trying to get hired at a regional no one was getting looked at unless you had 1000/100 or greater, and we thought that was a good deal. Then all the sudden kids were getting hired at ridiculous times like 3-400TT and a wet multi certificate. Now when the times go back up they all think it's not fair or undoable?
I really don't see why this is such a worry. When I first started flying, dudes weren't even getting looked at until they had >1500 hours. I remember a lot of the guys getting hired at a regional had around 2000 TT and 3-400 ME (spending 2ish years after college to get there). This was really the norm for a while. Yet they still managed to get the hours. When I was trying to get hired at a regional no one was getting looked at unless you had 1000/100 or greater, and we thought that was a good deal. Then all the sudden kids were getting hired at ridiculous times like 3-400TT and a wet multi certificate. Now when the times go back up they all think it's not fair or undoable?
12-21-2013, 06:51 PM
#6
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,549
Originally Posted by 2StgTurbine
CFIing is the only realistic way to get from 250 hours to 1500 now.
Originally Posted by 2StgTurbine
Sure, there are a few other options, but it is difficult to convince anyone that you can fly their expensive plane with only 250 hours today.
It wasn't that many years ago that right at 500 hours I had offers to tow banners at two different places, and a aerial imagery outfit. Even was offered a job to fly 206/207s in AK, as long as I came up and got 100 hours of AK flying time (most likely instructing) for their insurance mins. I heard the same thing from guys back then. They complained that they couldn't get time. But when I told them about all these opportunities, none of them were willing to go get the jobs. Heck even the guys that had >1500 hours, constantly complained about instructing, but were unwilling to go to places like AirNet because they were waiting on ExpressJet to hire them...what the heck?!?!
12-22-2013, 03:57 AM
#7
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,408
As an old school guy, (class of 1986-1988) I can agree that some folks lied all the time and padded their logbooks.
As for the, "there's no cancelled check flying any more" crowd, I had over 1800 TT just to get one of those jobs. So getting 1500 TT and going to a 50 seat plane is still far better off.
My last relevant point is that the biggest impediment to cheating was getting caught. An open question will be the attitude of the companies that are doing the hiring. If they view padding as something bad, fewer will do it. If it means getting bodies in class and they look the other way, more will do it. It's really up to the airlines and that's why I'm worried.
As for the, "there's no cancelled check flying any more" crowd, I had over 1800 TT just to get one of those jobs. So getting 1500 TT and going to a 50 seat plane is still far better off.
My last relevant point is that the biggest impediment to cheating was getting caught. An open question will be the attitude of the companies that are doing the hiring. If they view padding as something bad, fewer will do it. If it means getting bodies in class and they look the other way, more will do it. It's really up to the airlines and that's why I'm worried.
12-22-2013, 09:06 AM
#8
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Posts: 39,261
Originally Posted by jonnyjetprop
As an old school guy, (class of 1986-1988) I can agree that some folks lied all the time and padded their logbooks.
As for the, "there's no cancelled check flying any more" crowd, I had over 1800 TT just to get one of those jobs. So getting 1500 TT and going to a 50 seat plane is still far better off.
My last relevant point is that the biggest impediment to cheating was getting caught. An open question will be the attitude of the companies that are doing the hiring. If they view padding as something bad, fewer will do it. If it means getting bodies in class and they look the other way, more will do it. It's really up to the airlines and that's why I'm worried.
As for the, "there's no cancelled check flying any more" crowd, I had over 1800 TT just to get one of those jobs. So getting 1500 TT and going to a 50 seat plane is still far better off.
My last relevant point is that the biggest impediment to cheating was getting caught. An open question will be the attitude of the companies that are doing the hiring. If they view padding as something bad, fewer will do it. If it means getting bodies in class and they look the other way, more will do it. It's really up to the airlines and that's why I'm worried.
I think it's actually easier to get caught cheating today. You can google an N-number and learn all kinds of things about it. Also you're not just lying to an airline, you're lying to the fed since you need that time on an 8710 for the ATP, not just a resume.
I actually know a guy who got fired because he padded his time to get a regional job but didn't realize that he would have to fill out an 8710 to get his SIC type. He was afraid to lie to the FAA so he put his actual numbers on the 8710 and somebody noticed the delta. He was always an idiot but at least he didn't go to jail...
But I hadn't thought that some bottom-feeder regionals might look the other way or not probe too deeply on applicant's aeronautical experience. I imagine the word will get around pretty quick as to which regionals accept P-51 time!
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