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Part 91 SIC Questions and Advice

Old 01-19-2014, 02:52 PM
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First off I want to say I understand I am very lucky to be in the position I'm in. In my case it TRULY is who you know when it comes to part 91 flying. I often pinch myself to see if I'm dreaming. Now my story:

I currently have 4 hours TT. Yes, 4 hours. But I do have more aviation background than the typical student pilot. I have a connection with a company (currently a gag order so no specifics here) that will be purchasing a Global 5000 and they want me to fly it. I understand it will take some time but my connection has a lot of pull in the company and they are willing to pay for ALL of my flight training including getting me SIC type rated until I get my hours up.

I have my B.S. and I have looked into finishing my flight training at ATP Flight School. By going there it will allow me to receive ~275 total hours with 100 hours Multi time. I will also receive my CFI, CFII, and MEI. From there I will be sent to Montreal or Dallas to become SIC type rated as I will be flying Internationally.

I understand the regs pertaining to part 61.55 but the only thing that I am not sure about is part 91.1053 crewmember experience:

(a) No program manager or owner may use any person, nor may any person serve, as a pilot in command or second in command of a program aircraft, or as a flight attendant on a program aircraft, in program operations under this subpart unless that person has met the applicable requirements of part 61 of this chapter and has the following experience and ratings:
(1) Total flight time for all pilots:
(i) Pilot in command—A minimum of 1,500 hours.
(ii) Second in command—A minimum of 500 hours.

Does the min 500 hours TT only apply for part 135 flying or also 91? If so, am I able to fly in the right seat for domestic flights to build time until I get SIC type rated? I guess what's confusing is what's considered a "program flight/aircraft". I'd appreciate any info on part 91 flying. Also, any advice with ATP flight school is welcome!

I understand many well qualified pilots would kill to be in the position I am in and it is a dream come true! No big head on these shoulders.

Thanks!
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Old 01-19-2014, 03:12 PM
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A Global 5000 requires two pilots who are both QUALIFIED to fly it. Meaning at least a Commercial Multi-Engine with appropriate type. There would be no way you could sit in the right seat and "build time".

I believe that 91 rule comes out of 91 Sub K, which pertains to fractional flying.

Insurance companies rule aviation. It doesn't matter if the boss of the company wants you flying his brand new jet, if their insurance says "no" because of your qualifications then you're stuck. Unless your boss wants to pay premiums up the butt to insure you then I guess that's a way.
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Old 01-19-2014, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by freightdog View Post
A Global 5000 requires two pilots who are both QUALIFIED to fly it. Meaning at least a Commercial Multi-Engine with appropriate type. There would be no way you could sit in the right seat and "build time".

I believe that 91 rule comes out of 91 Sub K, which pertains to fractional flying.

Insurance companies rule aviation. It doesn't matter if the boss of the company wants you flying his brand new jet, if their insurance says "no" because of your qualifications then you're stuck. Unless your boss wants to pay premiums up the butt to insure you then I guess that's a way.



If the above story is true i would almost question if the boss was crazy enough to eat it on the insurance. He said he has 4 hours and the boss wants him to fly it? Is the boss thinking logically?
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Old 01-19-2014, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ClarenceOver View Post
[/B]


If the above story is true i would almost question if the boss was crazy enough to eat it on the insurance. He said he has 4 hours and the boss wants him to fly it? Is the boss thinking logically?
Yes. 4 hours total as of right now. I am well aware that flying with my experience so far would be a death sentence. And stupid illegal. Even in a C152. But by the time I'm ready to get Part 91 SIC typed, I will have gotten my PPL, CPL, CFI, CFII, and MEII. Still considerably less hours than others flying in the Global birds, yes. But acceptable according to the FAA.
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Old 01-19-2014, 08:16 PM
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Assuming we're talking about a private FAR 91 operation, that reg doesn't apply, it applies to fractionals. That said, there are a raft of obstacles to you flying a Global in either seat--TRTOs might have a problem guaranteeing training, insurance might be a problem, whoever they hired as chief would certainly have an issue. The fact is there are loads of Global-rated guys seeking work.

GF
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Old 01-20-2014, 06:26 AM
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i don't see flight safety or simuflite even wanting to touch this.
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Old 01-20-2014, 07:28 AM
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Default Part 91 SIC Questions and Advice

I got on with a company flying a swept wing Citation at just over 500 hours. 1.) It's basically up to how stupid the captain is to want to fly with such a low time guy 2.) how he can sell the insurance on you making a safe crew and pulling it off 3.) how the company will make a deal with you in paying you in dirt instead of money due to your lack of experience and selling you on (you're time building helping your career). Flight safety/simuflite didn't come into the picture until I had about a 1000hrs and only went to a recurrent as the captain will just probably do ground with you and give you your 3 landings in the bird. They're all cheap as ****** so that's the only reason guys like us got a dream shot to go do this, try not to kill yourself, get your 1500 hrs of time and get out.
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Old 01-20-2014, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by GWBic View Post
Yes. 4 hours total as of right now. I am well aware that flying with my experience so far would be a death sentence. And stupid illegal. Even in a C152. But by the time I'm ready to get Part 91 SIC typed, I will have gotten my PPL, CPL, CFI, CFII, and MEII. Still considerably less hours than others flying in the Global birds, yes. But acceptable according to the FAA.
Your naïveté, from your last sentence above, is understandable. Not meant to offend. I don't think any insurance company anywhere can cover you for something like that no matter what the boss is willing to pay them. We're not talking a little old jet here either. What is acceptable to the FAA is also a far cry from the real world.

Although 91 is different from a regulatory standpoint, the multimillion dollar risk involved still remains. It compels insurance companies to require pilots with a great deal more than just 500 hours to even be considered for SIC employment at 91 flight departments like ours with larger, newer jets.

Also, heaven forbid, should your captain be called for his final flight out west while you are both flying somewhere in God knows what, the insurance company has to know you can handle any eventuality. That is asking a lot of someone with insufficient background.

Finally, the schoolhouse is another obstacle. If you think they just give SIC Jet ratings like candy, they don't. I know of one who attended with 5,000+ hours, but all of it in little planes and with around 100 hours multiengine. He didn't even finish his Bombardier SIC school. They sent him home. The boss had to eat the $20,000+cost.

Still, I'd be really excited too if someone else was going to pay for all of my training!!!! I'd get the ratings as quickly as possible at some place like ATP or Pan Am. Get the CFI's, build the time, & your job will still be waiting for you.

Good luck!

HD
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Old 01-20-2014, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer View Post
Assuming we're talking about a private FAR 91 operation, that reg doesn't apply, it applies to fractionals. That said, there are a raft of obstacles to you flying a Global in either seat--TRTOs might have a problem guaranteeing training, insurance might be a problem, whoever they hired as chief would certainly have an issue. The fact is there are loads of Global-rated guys seeking work.

GF
Thanks Galaxy Flyer for simply answering the question, giving some additional productive food for thought and not ranting about how dangerous or what not a 4 hour pilot may be. I cant understand how on these forums especially when an aspiring pilot is asking a perfectly good question they get $hat on by others saying he would be dangerous or the owner is crazy etc. Just answer the question like galaxyflyer did and be supportive to someone who wants to join our little brotherhood/sisterhood.

Good luck mate. Im sure you will realize just what experience you will need to get where you want to go. My advice ... don't rush anything your not ready for.

Cheers
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Old 01-21-2014, 02:24 AM
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That said, there still needs to be a full review of the situation by experts, not Internet cowboys. Neither the OP, nor the company are knowledgeable on the many factors here. A insurance expert and an aviation lawyer need to consulted along with the Chief Pilot. It's easy for non-experts to throw out offers, "cashing the check" is whole 'nother thing. I'd speak with the TRTO T(ikely Bombardier), the insurance carrier and the CP before acting.

GF
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