Training Contracts and At Will Employment
06-10-2014, 11:28 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 314
Training Contracts and At Will Employment
It has come to my attention recently that some employers are trying to get guys to sign a training agreement while establishing 'AT WILL EMPLOYMENT' at the same time.
I can tell you this from direct experience that their training contracts are NOT enforceable. The only thing they can do is put you down as a termination IF you let them. Meaning, don't give 2 weeks notice. That's what AT WILL employment is. They have the right to terminate at any time, for any reason. And YOU have the right to QUIT, at any time, for any reason. That's the other side of the coin. Period.
Don't worry about training contracts. At will States are at will states.
I can tell you this from direct experience that their training contracts are NOT enforceable. The only thing they can do is put you down as a termination IF you let them. Meaning, don't give 2 weeks notice. That's what AT WILL employment is. They have the right to terminate at any time, for any reason. And YOU have the right to QUIT, at any time, for any reason. That's the other side of the coin. Period.
Don't worry about training contracts. At will States are at will states.
06-10-2014, 04:01 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,408
I learned a long time ago. I don't take legal advice, tax advice nor investment advice from pilots.
Are you right or wrong? Don't know. Check with an attorney in either your home state or the state where the contract is signed. Too many variables for a blanket statement.
Are you right or wrong? Don't know. Check with an attorney in either your home state or the state where the contract is signed. Too many variables for a blanket statement.
Originally Posted by MR JT8D
It has come to my attention recently that some employers are trying to get guys to sign a training agreement while establishing 'AT WILL EMPLOYMENT' at the same time.
I can tell you this from direct experience that their training contracts are NOT enforceable. The only thing they can do is put you down as a termination IF you let them. Meaning, don't give 2 weeks notice. That's what AT WILL employment is. They have the right to terminate at any time, for any reason. And YOU have the right to QUIT, at any time, for any reason. That's the other side of the coin. Period.
Don't worry about training contracts. At will States are at will states.
I can tell you this from direct experience that their training contracts are NOT enforceable. The only thing they can do is put you down as a termination IF you let them. Meaning, don't give 2 weeks notice. That's what AT WILL employment is. They have the right to terminate at any time, for any reason. And YOU have the right to QUIT, at any time, for any reason. That's the other side of the coin. Period.
Don't worry about training contracts. At will States are at will states.
06-10-2014, 05:25 PM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Position: King Air PIC
Posts: 145
I did not go thru this personally, but some co-workers did. We work as an "at will" employee and there is also a training contract. They quit the company and of course the company went after them for large amounts of cash (10-20K depending). Together they got a lawyer and the lawyer just shook his head and told them the training contract was not legally enforceable. The lawyer sent the company a response and the company countered with a settlement amount (2.5K I think it was) per person. The co-workers were all gung ho about taking it all the way to court right up to the point where the lawyer told them to take the deal. In order for a lawyer to represent them out of state in this case it was going to cost more than the 2.5K settlement amount. So, they paid it.
Having said that, no not take these matters lightly. There could have been some specific language in the training agreements with the company that made it not enforceable. The agreements with your specific companies may in fact be legally binding. The only safe thing it to talk to a lawyer before doing something you might regret.
Having said that, no not take these matters lightly. There could have been some specific language in the training agreements with the company that made it not enforceable. The agreements with your specific companies may in fact be legally binding. The only safe thing it to talk to a lawyer before doing something you might regret.
06-10-2014, 06:27 PM
#4
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,211
1. Don't work for a company which requires a training contract unless the job is a really sweet deal (ie good compensation and QOL). Otherwise the training contract is just a way of saying "we are going to take advantage of you, and you're going to regret the day you ever heard of this company so we need to lock you down before you wise up".
2. Many or even most training contracts are very difficult to enforce, but ask your lawyer about any specific contract.
3. The bad news is the company doesn't need the contract to hold up in court. The cost and hassle of litigation is usually more than it's worth for a pilot, especially since we want good references from all past employers. Also they can use the contract as a basis to hose your credit very quickly and at no expense to them, and then you have to pay to litigate to hopefully get it fixed.
Best not to sign training contracts unless it's a good job and you fully expect to complete the terms.
2. Many or even most training contracts are very difficult to enforce, but ask your lawyer about any specific contract.
3. The bad news is the company doesn't need the contract to hold up in court. The cost and hassle of litigation is usually more than it's worth for a pilot, especially since we want good references from all past employers. Also they can use the contract as a basis to hose your credit very quickly and at no expense to them, and then you have to pay to litigate to hopefully get it fixed.
Best not to sign training contracts unless it's a good job and you fully expect to complete the terms.
Last edited by rickair7777; 06-10-2014 at 06:50 PM.
06-10-2014, 06:46 PM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 127
Dough-Jet Savings & Loan
Originally Posted by rickair7777
Also they can use the contract as a basis to hose your credit very quickly and at no expense to them, and then you have to pay to litigate to hopefully get it fixed.
Best not to sign training contracts unless it's a good job and you fully expect to complete the terms.
Best not to sign training contracts unless it's a good job and you fully expect to complete the terms.
Promissory Notes
Instead of a "training contract" an employer might have a new-hire sign a note during the initial training/hiring process.
Apparently aviation lawyers are getting a bit smarter.
The airline is playing the part of "The Bank." Training costs are now a lump sum that that are "loaning" you up front for training. Your loan is considered "paid in full" if you complete 12 or 24 or whatever months of serfdom. You must repay the loan if you quit before that term is up.
So, in the end, (depending on the laws in your locale) the employer cannot force you to stay, but they retain the ability to fire you at will, AND they can hang you out to dry and wreck you financially if you don't stick around or pay your debt.
DISCLAIMER:
I don't know the legalities of this in your state, this advice isn't worth the paper it's printed on, yadda yadda yadda, YMMV, etc.
06-11-2014, 01:23 PM
#6
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
Originally Posted by MR JT8D
It has come to my attention recently that some employers are trying to get guys to sign a training agreement while establishing 'AT WILL EMPLOYMENT' at the same time.
I can tell you this from direct experience that their training contracts are NOT enforceable. The only thing they can do is put you down as a termination IF you let them. Meaning, don't give 2 weeks notice. That's what AT WILL employment is. They have the right to terminate at any time, for any reason. And YOU have the right to QUIT, at any time, for any reason. That's the other side of the coin. Period.
Don't worry about training contracts. At will States are at will states.
I can tell you this from direct experience that their training contracts are NOT enforceable. The only thing they can do is put you down as a termination IF you let them. Meaning, don't give 2 weeks notice. That's what AT WILL employment is. They have the right to terminate at any time, for any reason. And YOU have the right to QUIT, at any time, for any reason. That's the other side of the coin. Period.
Don't worry about training contracts. At will States are at will states.
1. Never sign any pilot training contract without taking to your contract lawyer first and asking what happens if they fire you, and if the company refuses to allow this to happen find another employer. It's a trap.
2. These contracts ARE enforceable in most cases because they are written by contract lawyers for the company. They KNOW what works and what doesn't in court. They are not playing games, they are dead serious about getting their money when they sue someone, and at the very least you will have an awful time defending yourself. Worse case is you lose the case, get a judgement against you for the original training contract amount PLUS the company lawyer fees. Think $100k on up- you do not want to go there.
Originally Posted by rickair7777
...3. The bad news is the company doesn't need the contract to hold up in court. The cost and hassle of litigation is usually more than it's worth for a pilot, especially since we want good references from all past employers. Also they can use the contract as a basis to hose your credit very quickly and at no expense to them, and then you have to pay to litigate to hopefully get it fixed....
06-15-2014, 08:32 PM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: PT Inbound
Posts: 219
Originally Posted by Cubdriver
You are dead wrong, and this is bad advice.
1. Never sign any pilot training contract without taking to your contract lawyer first and asking what happens if they fire you, and if the company refuses to allow this to happen find another employer. It's a trap.
2. These contracts ARE enforceable in most cases because they are written by contract lawyers for the company. They KNOW what works and what doesn't in court. They are not playing games, they are dead serious about getting their money when they sue someone, and at the very least you will have an awful time defending yourself. Worse case is you lose the case, get a judgement against you for the original training contract amount PLUS the company lawyer fees. Think $100k on up- you do not want to go there.
These companies know pilots come to them almost broke and always hoping for a step up to a better life. You do not want to mess with them or their legal people. How do you avoid that? Either do not work for them in the first place which is what I advise most people, or be ready to pay out the contract on the spot at any time. Skipping town even when you were (in your mind) improperly terminated is not a very good proposition.
1. Never sign any pilot training contract without taking to your contract lawyer first and asking what happens if they fire you, and if the company refuses to allow this to happen find another employer. It's a trap.
2. These contracts ARE enforceable in most cases because they are written by contract lawyers for the company. They KNOW what works and what doesn't in court. They are not playing games, they are dead serious about getting their money when they sue someone, and at the very least you will have an awful time defending yourself. Worse case is you lose the case, get a judgement against you for the original training contract amount PLUS the company lawyer fees. Think $100k on up- you do not want to go there.
These companies know pilots come to them almost broke and always hoping for a step up to a better life. You do not want to mess with them or their legal people. How do you avoid that? Either do not work for them in the first place which is what I advise most people, or be ready to pay out the contract on the spot at any time. Skipping town even when you were (in your mind) improperly terminated is not a very good proposition.
Don't take a job with a contract or be willing to pay up if you leave early / get fired. Also, don't take legal advice from a free public forum.
Disclaimer: I am NOT a lawyer. I am a person who honors contracts that he signs.
06-16-2014, 04:47 AM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Position: On the hotel shuttle
Posts: 5,808
Originally Posted by 501D22G
Latest variation on this scheme:
Promissory Notes
Instead of a "training contract" an employer might have a new-hire sign a note during the initial training/hiring process.
Apparently aviation lawyers are getting a bit smarter.
The airline is playing the part of "The Bank." Training costs are now a lump sum that that are "loaning" you up front for training. Your loan is considered "paid in full" if you complete 12 or 24 or whatever months of serfdom. You must repay the loan if you quit before that term is up.
So, in the end, (depending on the laws in your locale) the employer cannot force you to stay, but they retain the ability to fire you at will, AND they can hang you out to dry and wreck you financially if you don't stick around or pay your debt.
DISCLAIMER:
I don't know the legalities of this in your state, this advice isn't worth the paper it's printed on, yadda yadda yadda, YMMV, etc.
Promissory Notes
Instead of a "training contract" an employer might have a new-hire sign a note during the initial training/hiring process.
Apparently aviation lawyers are getting a bit smarter.
The airline is playing the part of "The Bank." Training costs are now a lump sum that that are "loaning" you up front for training. Your loan is considered "paid in full" if you complete 12 or 24 or whatever months of serfdom. You must repay the loan if you quit before that term is up.
So, in the end, (depending on the laws in your locale) the employer cannot force you to stay, but they retain the ability to fire you at will, AND they can hang you out to dry and wreck you financially if you don't stick around or pay your debt.
DISCLAIMER:
I don't know the legalities of this in your state, this advice isn't worth the paper it's printed on, yadda yadda yadda, YMMV, etc.
Safe to say, don't ever sign one. It reveals a great deal about the company.
