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Help with a training contract
Yes, if you read my previous posts, I described the one time that I signed an unfair "training" agreement to fly night freight in cargo 402b models. I received about 2 hrs of "training" in the aircraft including the check ride. I'm not going to go back into detail on it but you can read the previous posts if you are so inclined. I've since learned a lot, that was years ago, but a very valuable lesson indeed.
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Fine, you made a poor choice. You can't make your historic isolated poor decision into an indictment that encompasses "most employers."
Remember that the choice to sign such agreements rests with the applicant. |
Most employers WHO require training contracts on non type required aircraft are using it as a means of retention due to poor working conditions, not to recoupe training costs. This is simple logic.
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Originally Posted by jonnyjetprop
(Post 1700144)
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Originally Posted by Joepilot84
(Post 1754044)
Most employers WHO require training contracts on non type required aircraft are using it as a means of retention due to poor working conditions, not to recoupe training costs. This is simple logic.
How about pilots who take the training, get a few hours, and run to the next best position in their curtain climb to that shiny jet? Perhaps that's why you had a contract in your 402...because you couldn't be depended upon, or those before you? I work a seasonal assignment for an operator who retains people not by contract, but by handshake, and with the incentive of a post season bonus. That ought to be enough, but this year I saw a young man bail TWO DAYS before the end of his duties. Two days! No type rating. No resume-enhancing training received. I know, however, that the operator spends typically in the order of 20,000 dollars minimum in preseason training in the aircraft, plus a series of additional schools. Further, to fill in for that individual who couldn't handle waiting two more days, the company had to pull another individual and fly him in, modify government agreements, and put him in place...for two days...at considerable expense. Contracts do protect type ratings, but they also protect the investment made by employers. Again, if you don't feel you should be held to the contract, DON'T SIGN IT! You signed a contract. You're postulating that "most" employers are bad employers again, backpeddling somewhat on with width of the net you're casting, and you're not attempting to back it up with fact, but with "logic." I suppose when you haven't a leg to stand on, you'll keep backpeddling until you think you can hold a corner of the room. It's very simple: don't enter into a contract if you're not willing to abide it. If you want legal counsel, pay for it. |
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
(Post 1754094)
Now you're back to "logic."
How about pilots who take the training, get a few hours, and run to the next best position in their curtain climb to that shiny jet? Perhaps that's why you had a contract in your 402...because you couldn't be depended upon, or those before you? I work a seasonal assignment for an operator who retains people not by contract, but by handshake, and with the incentive of a post season bonus. That ought to be enough, but this year I saw a young man bail TWO DAYS before the end of his duties. Two days! No type rating. No resume-enhancing training received. I know, however, that the operator spends typically in the order of 20,000 dollars minimum in preseason training in the aircraft, plus a series of additional schools. Further, to fill in for that individual who couldn't handle waiting two more days, the company had to pull another individual and fly him in, modify government agreements, and put him in place...for two days...at considerable expense. Contracts do protect type ratings, but they also protect the investment made by employers. Again, if you don't feel you should be held to the contract, DON'T SIGN IT! You signed a contract. You're postulating that "most" employers are bad employers again, backpeddling somewhat on with width of the net you're casting, and you're not attempting to back it up with fact, but with "logic." I suppose when you haven't a leg to stand on, you'll keep backpeddling until you think you can hold a corner of the room. It's very simple: don't enter into a contract if you're not willing to abide it. If you want legal counsel, pay for it. I see you feel the need to continue attacking me, so continue on if it makes you feel better, I could care less. The reason I had to sign a training contract in the 402 is because the company was terrible, and their average pilot retention was two months. I didn't mind the terrible working conditions personally, in fact I kind of enjoyed it. And to get things straight I didn't break the contract, they did, and then tried to come after me for repayment, even though I worked there for 10 of the 12 months. As far as company specific training, that's a cost of doing business, don't like it don't start a 135 operation. Pilot retention is much better handled by providing good incentives for people to stay, not extorting them through means of one sided contractual agreement. I've said it before and I'll say it again, my advice is not to sign one sided agreements. Employment contacts in the real world protect both parties, and they should in the aviation world as well. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk |
You think this is an attack? You've defended points that are without defense and made statements that you can't back up.
The truth is that training contracts and employment agreements are largely the function of pilots who couldn't act honorably, and cost employers time, productivity, money, and clients. There are a number of employers out there that don't pay particularly well, don't have the newest equipment, or even the most desirable working conditions. Research the company before taking the job. Pilots often take those jobs because they want the flight time, the experience, and the opportunity to move on. If that's what they want, then they need to be willing to recognize that turnabout is fair play, and that they need to give enough service to justify their employment. Too often pilot employees hire on intending to leave as soon as they can rack up a few hours. They springboard off the employer, looking for bigger and better. The employer now may not be top of the heap, may not be the biggest or fastest or pay the best, but HE is the one that gave you your chance. Recognize that, pay it back by staying long enough to make it worth the employers while. He's got a business to run, and that business isn't training you for the next guy. If he's going to put the time and effort into bringing you on board and giving you your chance, then honor that effort. If a training agreement is fronted, and you don't agree with it, don't take the job. Most of the employers for whom I've worked had no agreement; it was a hand shake. I find a handshake to be binding. Many do not. I will honor a handshake. Many will not. Most all training agreements or employment contracts offer a clause to allow you out; if you agreed to a training bond, for example, of twelve thousand dollars, and you agreed that it will be forgiven at the rate of a thousand dollars a month, then when your shiny jet syndrome it too unbearable at the six month point, all you need to do is honor your commitment and fork over six grand. Or stay the other six months like you promised you would. Simple. This is attacking you, is it? You may need a little thicker skin if you intend to survive very long in this industry. |
I'll throw in my two cents on this over debated subject. For the record, JBurke is spot on with his analysis, IMHO. But one more point on "contract disputes." The legal system has developed, over centuries, via common law and statutory remedies, the general prohibition against 'self-help' in a legitimate contract dispute. If there is an alleged breach of the agreement, the parties, at a minimum, are obligated to abide by the dispute clauses (along with the remainder of the terms) in the agreement. Today, that generally requires arbitration or mediation. While the dispute is being settled, however, neither party should compound the problem, (or possibly breach the agreement themselves) by resorting to 'self-help.' In this discussion, self-help would have been leaving employment prior to the agreed upon time. If, then, during the arbitration/mediation it is found that one of the parties did indeed breach the agreement, an awarded remedy (generally damages) would seek to make the non-breaching party whole. This idea that "I don't like how the terms of a contract is working out for me so I'll fix it myself" defeats the rule of law (in this case, contract law) and is, metaphorically speaking, a form of vigilantism. :)
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Originally Posted by JohnBurke
(Post 1754115)
You think this is an attack? You've defended points that are without defense and made statements that you can't back up.
The truth is that training contracts and employment agreements are largely the function of pilots who couldn't act honorably, and cost employers time, productivity, money, and clients. There are a number of employers out there that don't pay particularly well, don't have the newest equipment, or even the most desirable working conditions. Research the company before taking the job. Pilots often take those jobs because they want the flight time, the experience, and the opportunity to move on. If that's what they want, then they need to be willing to recognize that turnabout is fair play, and that they need to give enough service to justify their employment. Too often pilot employees hire on intending to leave as soon as they can rack up a few hours. They springboard off the employer, looking for bigger and better. The employer now may not be top of the heap, may not be the biggest or fastest or pay the best, but HE is the one that gave you your chance. Recognize that, pay it back by staying long enough to make it worth the employers while. He's got a business to run, and that business isn't training you for the next guy. If he's going to put the time and effort into bringing you on board and giving you your chance, then honor that effort. If a training agreement is fronted, and you don't agree with it, don't take the job. Most of the employers for whom I've worked had no agreement; it was a hand shake. I find a handshake to be binding. Many do not. I will honor a handshake. Many will not. Most all training agreements or employment contracts offer a clause to allow you out; if you agreed to a training bond, for example, of twelve thousand dollars, and you agreed that it will be forgiven at the rate of a thousand dollars a month, then when your shiny jet syndrome it too unbearable at the six month point, all you need to do is honor your commitment and fork over six grand. Or stay the other six months like you promised you would. Simple. This is attacking you, is it? You may need a little thicker skin if you intend to survive very long in this industry. You crack me up man, you basically just reiterated the points I made previously. And trust me, I've lasted and done plenty well in this industry, flying most of my career in what is widely regarded as the toughest conditions on the planet. So don't talk down to me tough guy. I've seen companies royally screw over their employees and employees likewise royally screw over their employers. Fact is that training is a cost of doing business, plain and simple. Some people can hack it and others can't, sometimes their are extenuating circumstances and sometimes their aren't, and some companies are great and honor their commitments and some aren't. You claim to honor a handshake and so do I, as a matter of fact, I go above and beyond for every company I've ever worked for. How many times have you worked 14 hr shifts without a day off right up to your your 13 in a quarter? I've done it for years. I've loaded and unloaded thousands of pounds of sh@t in blowing snow day in day out, flying single pilot IFR in old clapped out airplanes through the mountains of Alaska. I was the guy who always made it in, who always got the job done for the company, and I have standing offers to return in any part of the state, so don't question my work ethic or the thickness of my skin. Training contracts are bullsh@t bordering on extorted indentured servitude, a handshake and your word is all that is necessary. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk |
Help with a training contract
Originally Posted by Ben Kenobi
(Post 1754148)
I'll throw in my two cents on this over debated subject. For the record, JBurke is spot on with his analysis, IMHO. But one more point on "contract disputes." The legal system has developed, over centuries, via common law and statutory remedies, the general prohibition against 'self-help' in a legitimate contract dispute. If there is an alleged breach of the agreement, the parties, at a minimum, are obligated to abide by the dispute clauses (along with the remainder of the terms) in the agreement. Today, that generally requires arbitration or mediation. While the dispute is being settled, however, neither party should compound the problem, (or possibly breach the agreement themselves) by resorting to 'self-help.' In this discussion, self-help would have been leaving employment prior to the agreed upon time. If, then, during the arbitration/mediation it is found that one of the parties did indeed breach the agreement, an awarded remedy (generally damages) would seek to make the non-breaching party whole. This idea that "I don't like how the terms of a contract is working out for me so I'll fix it myself" defeats the rule of law (in this case, contract law) and is, metaphorically speaking, a form of vigilantism. :)
Vigilantism is always more fun. ;) Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk |
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