1000 hr requirement for 121.436
 

Hello according to the requirements to serve as PIC under the 121.436, (a), 3.
It is stated to have 1000 hrs as sic under 121, however there are other options that I could use towards the requirements.

One of them is the pilot in command under 91.1053 (a).(2).(1). As an option towards the 1000 requirement, which refers to crew member experience in general.

Since I have that experience with 737, 145 and 190 aircrafts at foreign FAA certified operators.
Just trying to get a clear answer about this, just to confirm since I'm getting into a regional with the option to upgrade soon.

Thanks for your advise

91.1053 is part of the fractional program rules, so unless your time was gained in a 91K program, it will not count.

It specifically states that your pic times if operated under these parts apply, so I think you're good. A call to an FSDO may help you clarify this.

Yeah thanks, according to the 91 rules it states flying as pilot in command for a turbojet aircraft in general, it does not specify carrier or operator, it refers to general terms.

Do you recommend me to check with any fsdo or any location in particular?

Thanks

If you are not near an FSDO, I would recommend the one where your company is based/headquartered.

I guess some more explanation is needed. 91.1053 is a section of Subpart K of Part 91. If you read 91.1001 - Applicability, it says that Subpart K governs fractional ownership programs. As a result, 91.1053 applies specifically to fractional ownership programs, not generally as you suggest. 121.436 says "as pilot in command in operations under 91.1053...".

In several letters of interpretation, the FAA has interpreted this regulation VERY strictly and has denied multiple petitions for exemptions from companies and individuals seeking relief.

I would NOT recommend seeking information from a FSDO. Contrary to popular opinion, general aviation inspectors are not well-versed in Part 121 regulations, and their advice carries no legal weight at all. I would google "121.436 letter of interpretation" and read up on what the FAA legal department has said. That will provide you with much more accurate information.

for inspectors that should be more versed in 121 regs, try to contact a Certificate Management Office (should be one in ATL, ORD, DFW etc.) or the ORD FSDO (not the DPA FSDO). ORD and DPA serve the same area, but ORD is strictly 121 ops.

The FSDO level is not authorized to interpret regulation, and no answer you get at that level will be defensible, even if you receive it in writing. In other words, what you get is purely opinion, and at no time will you ever be able to fall back on that answer.

14 CFR 121.436(a)(3) states that a PIC under Part 121 must have 1000 hours as SIC either: under 121, 135, or 91K. Note that the specific 135 requirement is experience in turbojet multi engine (or multi engine in commuter operations) aircraft of 10 seats or more--in which the PIC must hold an ATP. Likewise, the 91K requirement is specifically multi-engine fixed wing airplane or powered lift operations in which the PIC must hold an ATP. In other words, not just any charter or fractional experience will do. The intent is that it's the equivalent level of responsibility and duty that a Part 121 operation would require.

If you operated for a foreign airline, it wasn't under Title 14 of the United States Code of Federal Regulations, and therefore, not a 91K, 121, or 135 operation.

Time spent as pilot in command or second in command in foreign operations does not apply to the 1000 hr. SIC requirement of 14 CFR 121.436(a)(3).

Note that 121.436(a)(3) doesn't apply if you've served as PIC under Part 121 prior to July 31, 2013.

If your experience wasn't working for a US carrier under 91K, 121, or 135, you may count 500 hours of military experience as PIC in a multi engine turbine aircraft (that requires more than one pilot) toward the 1000 hours required by 121.436(a)(3).

The following FAA Chief Legal Counsel Letters of Interpretation will help clarify the answer to your question and give additional insight. These are defensible and are a reliable source regarding the Administrator's position on your question:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf

The final letter of interpretation above serves to clarify the specific Part 135 reference requirements of the earlier Kelly letter.

Great, informative post. Unfortunately the regulation does not have the above common-sense provision in the language. The language in 121.436(a)(3) says it doesn't apply if you were serving as PIC under Part 121 ON July 31, 2013. As a result, prior PIC time is null and void unless you were a PIC ON that date. That was one of the main points of the Kelley interpretation you referenced.

Hence the purpose of turning to the correct source for gaining an authoritative and defensible interpretation of the regulations. The FAA Chief and Regional Legal Counsels are the only sources authorized by the Administrator to interpret the regulation; an interpretation of the regulation at the FSDO level is not authorized and any opinion received at that level cannot reliably be supported or relied upon.

Well in the following paragraph of the operations specifications manual states that the foreign company I work falls under 14 CFR:

(1) The holder of these operations specifications will conduct foreign air carrier operations in common carriage in the United States pursuant to the applicable requirements, including provisions of 14 CFR parts 91 and 129; 14 CFR part 175........

Be clearer.

Are you working for a US certificated air carrier, or not?

If not, then a statement in your manual advising that you'll comply with US regulation does NOT make you a US carrier.

If you are flying for an operation that holds a Part 121 operating certificate under the United States Code of Federal Regulations, then you're flying for a US carrier.

Which is it?

Simply stating that your operations will be conducted in accordance with XXX doesn't make you or your certificate holder a US carrier. Where is your company operating certificate issued, and under what authority?

There are other countries in the world that mirror US regulations, nearly to the letter, in establishing their own. Saudi Arabia is one.

I'm not arguing wether the company is a US carrier or not, I'm a E 190 Capt in Mex, and we operate under those regs in the states, that's the whole purpose of being FAA certified.

And since it is part 91 operated, I was looking to clarify if I could make use of this vast of airline experience for a pic 121 job.

And the answer is no, since your experience has not been gained in any of the 3 categories allowed by the regulation.

Established: you are not working for a US carrier.

When flying in the United States, yes, you must abide by the regulations established under Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations. That has nothing to do with your eligibility to fly for a US carrier, or your eligibility to obtain an airline transport pilot certificate.

Whereas you're not operating as pilot in command under 91K, 121, or 135, as previously discussed, your experience does not meet the requirement of 14 CFR 121.436(a)(3).

Previously you stated that you believe your "Operations Specifications" state that your work "falls under 14 CFR." That is incorrect. I don't know what "Operations Specifications" are assigned to you, but as you've established you're not working for a US certificate holder (charter, airline, or fractional), you don't have US Operations Specifications.

What you've cited is a requirement by your regulatory authority that you will abide by US regulations when operating in the United States. This applies regardless of who you are. If you fly in the USA, you'll abide US regulations. This is a blanket requirement as it is with any ICAO operation; you must still observe the regulation and legal requirement of the country in which you are flying.

If you wish to fly for a US carrier, you'll also need to meet the experience requirements applicable to that carrier. In the case of an airline (121) operator, you'll need to have the requisite experience to upgrade, and as 121.436(a)(3) spells out, you'll need a thousand hours of experience under 91K, 121, or 135 before you can upgrade.

Presently your situation does not meet that requirement.

Alright then, I appreciate the info and the clarification with this issue of mine.

Looks like I will need to get those 1000 hrs, not a problem.....

In most cases, with most airline situations, you're not going to have a speedy upgrade. You're going to get time in the right seat regardless of your experience or background, as you'll be restricted from upgrading by seniority. By the time you do get to upgrade, you'll have your thousand hours.

The reality is that you should have that time and experience first, in order to act as pilot in command, so take advantage of getting it. See how the operation works, how it's conducted, so when you do eventually slide into the left seat, it's a familiar fit with that company and aircraft.

That may be true in most places, but on the fringes of the 121 supplemental world, this rule is killing people's ability to upgrade. I've been at a 121 supplemental carrier for 9 months, I have the seniority to upgrade, but not the required time, even though I came from 135 freight PIC. Great set of rules the fed made...

The Administrator is the one charged by an act of Congress to establish those rules, and it's also the Administrator that grants your privileges.

You could always petition for a rule change, but it's going to be a long, hard sell.

I have been at a 121 regional airline, where newhires had the seniority to upgrade during indoc. The only thing keeping them most newhires from upgrading was not having 1500TT.

But in that class would be 3 or 4 ex-CFIs who did have their 1500TT (and not much more) so they upgraded immediately and hit the line flying as 121 captains with zero 121 experience. Good pilots, but some (only having 100hr seminole time and 1400 C172/182 time) really had no business being a captain at their experience level - just over 1500TT, paired with a 250hr FO.

Most were fortunate to survive their experience, other were not - LOIs, LOCs, a few violations dotted the landscape. - the FAA is not forgiving and doesn't consider whether you have 0 or 15,000hrs of 121 time.

I'm pretty sure the airline I'm referring to was the genesis for the 1000 hr 121/135 flight time requirement in order to be a 121 PIC.

I apologize if this has been answered somewhere, but if it has, I can't find it. According to everything I've seen, the military allowance is 500 hours of PIC towards the 1,000 hrs requirement. I would assume PIC in that case is referring to Aircraft Commander time and not to Primary time, right? However, it seems weird that you would need 500 hours of military AC time towards a 1000-hr minimum to upgrade to captain at a 121 operation. Then again, it's FAA so that's probably the case. Anybody have any experience with this that can offer clarification?


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What if I had 1000pic as a street captain before and still no 1000sic?

You can apply for an exemption. PM me.

Reviving or Revising an old thread: Does anyone know if the 121 1,000 hour requirement has been changed at all in the last couple of years?

I had a discussion with a possible employer today who stated my 1,000 hrs PIC 'Commuter Airline' would not count towards the 1,000 121 requirement; but it certainly does the way I read the FAR's. To wit: 121.436 "(3) If serving as pilot in command in part 121 operations, has 1,000 hours as second in command in operations under this part, pilot in command in operations under § 91.1053(a)(2)(i) of this chapter, pilot in command in operations under § 135.243(a)(1) of this chapter, or any combination thereof." 135.243(a)(1) reads "(1) Of a turbojet airplane, of an airplane having a passenger-seat configuration, excluding each crewmember seat, of 10 seats or more, or of a multiengine airplane in a commuter operation..."
Am I missing something or as I say, have the regs changed recently?

Nothing has changed. If you hold an ATP (which you need for the commuter ME PIC operation), that time counts towards 121 upgrade time.

"Note that 121.436(a)(3) doesn't apply if you've served as PIC under Part 121 prior to July 31, 2013." I want to be fairly accurate in a novel I'm writing--would your comment mean that if the main character gets into the right seat of a regional carrier in 2011 and moves to left seat in 2012, that he wouldn't need to meet the new ATP requirements that were installed in 2013? Thanks. I won't be including much detail in the book, but want to be close to accurate in what I present.

The regulation actually says that you need to be serving as PIC ON July 31, 2013 to be exempt from the regulation, so if your main character was a 121 PIC on July 31, 2013 then he wouldn't need the 1000 hours. That being said, the FAA has been approving exemptions to count the PIC hours for those who served as 121 PIC prior to but not ON July 31, 2013.

This should clear this up:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf

I have been researching my options and a question came up. If I already have my 1000 turbine SIC 121 but decided to move closer to home for a possibly part 135/or charter gig flying the ERJ-135 and upgrade as PIC, does that PIC time counts if I were to apply at another major airline towards the future?

If you're asking does your 121 SIC count towards upgrade requirements at a different airline, then yes. Once you have it (after the cutoff date in the rule), it's totally portable. What you do in the meantime doesn't matter.

Individual airlines can (and some do, or used to anyway) require X amount of hours at that company to upgrade.

Ahh alright gotcha! Thanks

Sorry to revive this thread with a somewhat dumb question, but when counting PIC time under 135.243(a)(1) is it >10 seats as certified or as installed? Let's say I'm PIC on a large cabin corporate jet with a full 13 seat executive configuration. The following week it gets reconfigured for Medevac with a stretcher, medical equipment, and 5 seats. Do those hours also count since the plane is certified for 13 pax or is it only when flying with that seating configuration installed?

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf

Note specifically:

The regulation speaks to the configuration of the airplane. An airplane with no passenger seats installed, for example, is not configured for 10 passenger seats. The type certification is not relevant; the number of installed seats is relevant.

CaptDave's link (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/2945269-post28.html) to the FAA Chief Legal Counsel letter of interpretation on page 1 of this thread (https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf) states the answer to your question:

Apparently they want you to have experience dealing with drunks, a-holes, bipolar, and emotional support ostriches.