dl1011

Hello all, here's my situation:

I have passed every single part 61 check ride I ever took in the first attempt:

1. PPL
2. IFR
3. CPL - Single
4. CPL - Multi
5. CFI
6. CFI-I
7. MEI

I even have a gold seal, if that means anything.

I've flown nothing but single engine and light twins prior to joining this regional.

I busted my first attempt at my ATP/Type Rating check ride (First Officer Trainee). This check ride was not AQP. I busted because of nerves which got me behind the airplane and I got behind my speeds.

I got retrained, then went for the ride again. Busted a second time because I thought we were doing a V1 cut, when in fact it was a capitan incapacitation/engine failure/rejected takeoff. I missed the cues (80 knots check/hands off throttles).

Every other item has been successfully completed. In both cases my nerves got to me and did me in, and my instructor (seat fill) and the check airmen also agreed that my nerves got the best of me. Both are recommending the company allow me to take the check again.

At this point, I don't even know if I have a job at my current regional. I am still waiting on a response. If I get a third chance, of course I will take it. It's another chance and it's only one easy item needed to complete.

Obviously this is an awful development. I've been doing so well, then all of a sudden, within a week, things go from great to awful.

My question is, assuming I get a third chance and pass, how ugly is this for my professional future in aviation?

Thanks for any help. It's been a hard week.

JohnBurke

Ugly, but skin deep.

I've represented a lot of training event failures when the actor was up for termination, and while it's a stressful and depressing event in an airman's life, it's not the end of the road. More like a bump that becomes part of the permanent record.

rickair7777

The good news...it's your first 121 and first turbine training event. That's a big step and most folks will be understanding about that. If you had to fail a 121 event, that's the one.

However...IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, stay and complete training at that company. IMO it will look better than being terminated/resigned after multiple busts. Basically shows that you got over it, and the company has confidence in your ability to move forward.

The downside...

1. You can't fail any more training events (including recurrent checkrides and line checks) until after you finish probation at your career-destination airline. This is important. Otherwise what is at this point a speedbump will start to look like a pattern. But once you get in the 121 groove, training failures are rare.

2. Other people will get called for interviews before you. You'll probably watch your FO's leaving for legacies before you get a call. But I think you'll get called eventually, assuming you don't have any other skeletons (criminal history, etc).

3. Good chance you'll need to work for a LCC before getting called by a legacy. Maybe stay there, or keep pushing for a legacy job.

You'll have to explain the busts at interviews. I'm sure you've read all the advice on how to do that it (own it, explain what you learned, and how you're a better pilot going forward). The problem with claiming "nerves" is that you have to explain how you're going to overcome that in the future. But you can come up with something plausible, should probably get some professional interview prep when the time comes.

BTW...it seems odd to me that they would give you multiple concurrent failures during a checkride (CA incap. and v1 cut). General FAA checking/training philosophy is that bad things normally only happen one at a time. If this is some fly-by-night company I would advise new pilots to be careful who you go to work for. Some operators (like GLA) have a reputation for hiring low-time pilots and washing them out in droves...great if you're one of the ones who pass, but not worth it if you fail out. In this day and age, just wait until a decent jet regional hires you...not worth risking your career to get out of instructing a few months early.

dl1011

Thank you John and Rick for the feedback, it is much appreciated.

Rick. . . we've been told a rejected takeoff from an engine failure is a requirement for the ATP/Full Type, despite the fact that I am going to be just a first officer.

Since the captain rejects, the only time the FO would reject is if the captain passed out. Then add on top the required RTO from an engine failure.

FYI I am at what is considered a decent regional.

JohnBurke

There appears so e confusion here, both as to what your assignment was, at the time, and what your understanding was of what was expected during the checkride. It appears that this lack of understanding or clarity may have been a chief contributing factor to the failure.

I've taken type rides for jobs in which I was SIC, and jobs for which I was hired as PIC. In either case, I was expected to fulfill the actions and duties of the PIC, as it was my mastery of the aircraft that was being tested for the checkride. In each case the type ride was conducted in the left seat.

Was your checkride in the right seat, or left? You indicated "80 knots and hands off throttles" as a que you missed. Do you mean that you were performing the takeoff, were above 80 knots, and hands off the throttles? Generally 80 knots is a generic reference point that represents an arbitrary transition from low speed to high speed rejection criteria/region, but the threshold for rejecting the takeoff is V1the captain will remain hands-on-throttles until V1. Removal of the captains hand at V1 symbolizes the commitment to flight and establishes that the time to reject has passed.

I think you may be confused about what was/is expected of you on this checkride, and that absolutely needs to be crystal clear with everyone on the same page before you test again. Your report here indicates that you believed you were strictly acting in a SIC capacity with no right or responsibility to reject a takeoff, unless the Captain were to be incapacitated. Additionally, it appears that your perception is that the requirement for you to perform the rejected takeoff must mean that the captain was incapacitated.

I don't believe, based on what you've said, that you had the double emergency that you think you had. I think you were expected to perform the rejected takeoff because it was a type rating checkride, and that the captain was never incapacitated (you assumed, perhaps). Again, be thoroughly clear about what's expected from you, and your role and authority in the sim.

In most cases, as the SIC, you're correct that it would be the captain's perrogative and duty to make the call to reject...any place and time EXCEPT during a type ride. Remember, if you're not just getting a SIC type, if you are getting full PIC type rating, you've got to demonstrate that capability during the checkride.

dl1011

John, I was sitting in the right seat. The airline had the seat fill fake an incapacitation prior to the 80 knots check, so that there would be no callouts beyond TOGA set, thus creating a cue to the FO that the captain passed out.

Soon after the missed 80 knot callout, an engine would fail. At this point we were expected to abort from the right seat.

This is how we conducted the training and what what was expected of us. The double emergency condition was created to give the FO the reason to abort the T/O. Perhaps it wasn't necessary to have the captain pass out, but it's how we trained and what happened in the check ride.

rickair7777

Strange. Well it seems that an incapacitated CA would be sufficient cause to abort (if it could be determined prior to V1). No need for the engine failure.

But if that's what you practiced in training then it's not really a stretch. It would be a real stretch IMO to surprise you with a double emergency which you had not practiced.

Hacker15e

Or, as other shops do, they could put you in the left seat acting as Captain and let you perform the reject yourself.

dl1011

News isn't good, they had to let me go. Something about a third attempt potentially putting my licenses in jeopardy and the company's unwillingness to risk this.

Gonna try applying again elsewhere and I hope other carriers see I have a great track record prior to this nightmarish week.


I wish they had done that. No way to make my mistake then.

Aryan

The problem is that this nightmarish week IS part of your track record now.