Good Article on Pilot Shortage
#21
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,401
In 8 years?
Omni, Kalitta, possibly Spirit comes to mind first. No degree required for any of them, and 5 year captain seniority should be in the 180-210 range. I assumed 3 years in regionals to be hireable by those companies.
Of course if you bid reserve and chill, it takes longer. But for someone who is willing to hustle and fly a lot, that should be a realistic timeframe, give or take a year or two.
Done right, a pilot can also make 300k+ in 20 years from start of career, even with no degree or anything. 8 years at Envoy/PDT/PSA, flow, and 12 year seniority at AA.
Start when you're 24, make 300k+ from 44 until 65, that's 21 years of 300k+ income.
All this obviously assumes no 9/11's or other history changing events at times of low seniority.
Omni, Kalitta, possibly Spirit comes to mind first. No degree required for any of them, and 5 year captain seniority should be in the 180-210 range. I assumed 3 years in regionals to be hireable by those companies.
Of course if you bid reserve and chill, it takes longer. But for someone who is willing to hustle and fly a lot, that should be a realistic timeframe, give or take a year or two.
Done right, a pilot can also make 300k+ in 20 years from start of career, even with no degree or anything. 8 years at Envoy/PDT/PSA, flow, and 12 year seniority at AA.
Start when you're 24, make 300k+ from 44 until 65, that's 21 years of 300k+ income.
All this obviously assumes no 9/11's or other history changing events at times of low seniority.
#22
just a quick google search brought this up...
https://mashable.com/2016/04/20/regi.../#uC7eBXLPAGq3
Believe me when I say, its not a great investment. My wife is an anesthesiologist. She invested $250k in education, four years of school and four years as a resident (of which she got paid about $50k a year) and now she makes $550k a year. That's a good ROI.
She pretty much invested the same money and time into her education as a pilot would and a pilot will never see that kind of money. Not to mention, she will never get jerked around, be under a threat of losing her livelihood due to loss of a medical certificate and she is home pretty much every night.
https://mashable.com/2016/04/20/regi.../#uC7eBXLPAGq3
Believe me when I say, its not a great investment. My wife is an anesthesiologist. She invested $250k in education, four years of school and four years as a resident (of which she got paid about $50k a year) and now she makes $550k a year. That's a good ROI.
She pretty much invested the same money and time into her education as a pilot would and a pilot will never see that kind of money. Not to mention, she will never get jerked around, be under a threat of losing her livelihood due to loss of a medical certificate and she is home pretty much every night.
Aviation, at this moment in time, is a decent calculated risk with a LIKELY good ROI.
And yes people are making $600-700K in the airlines (extreme cases, top-tier widebody CA's).
Also few people dreamed of being an anesthesiologist at age six. Few people will have the opportunity to attend med school and track in one of the lucrative but relatively easy specialties.
There are many factors. In the grand scheme of things, aviation is a good ROI, right now, if you can accept some risk.
#23
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 72
Ok yeah, me saying $250k is an overboard statement. But $180k seems pretty common for private through CFI.
Anyone who has been told that there are airline pilots make $600k a year and believes them is very naive.
Quoted
"The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the average salary of a Commercial Pilot is $77,200 per year. The lowest-paid 10 percent of Commercial Pilots earn $39,430, while the highest-paid 10 percent earn more than $147,240 annually."
The monthly payment on a 10 year $180k school loan is almost $2000 a month. Try making that payment making $39000 a year.
The market tells us that people are crunching the numbers, looking at ROI and overall quality of life and that's part of why there is shortage.
Beyond that the history
shows us the airlines making a bad name for themselves with extreme low pay. I remember when most regionals paid $12k a year for first year FO's.
Personally I think most of the problem is a general lack of interest in making a career in aviation.
Anyone who has been told that there are airline pilots make $600k a year and believes them is very naive.
Quoted
"The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the average salary of a Commercial Pilot is $77,200 per year. The lowest-paid 10 percent of Commercial Pilots earn $39,430, while the highest-paid 10 percent earn more than $147,240 annually."
The monthly payment on a 10 year $180k school loan is almost $2000 a month. Try making that payment making $39000 a year.
The market tells us that people are crunching the numbers, looking at ROI and overall quality of life and that's part of why there is shortage.
Beyond that the history
shows us the airlines making a bad name for themselves with extreme low pay. I remember when most regionals paid $12k a year for first year FO's.
Personally I think most of the problem is a general lack of interest in making a career in aviation.
#24
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 72
Your wife also pays what, $200k a year in liability insurance?
A pilot might spend $100k, one year in "school" and will hit $200k pretty easily in 8 years. Heck, you can expect to hit $100k/year on your second or third year. This assuming no 4 year degree.
Home every night, but work 20-22 days a month. A pilot is home much more.
With a 4 year degree, numbers change depending where you get that degree from.
A pilot might spend $100k, one year in "school" and will hit $200k pretty easily in 8 years. Heck, you can expect to hit $100k/year on your second or third year. This assuming no 4 year degree.
Home every night, but work 20-22 days a month. A pilot is home much more.
With a 4 year degree, numbers change depending where you get that degree from.
Those high insurance costs disappeared when I believe president Clinton put malpractice insurance reform into effect.
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Position: Family guy
Posts: 144
I'm one of those blokes trying to calculate my ROI. I am 45, sitting at 220 hours and about to do my IFR checkride. I want to knock out my Commercial license in the next 30 days. But i look at how slowly my pilot hours are accruing and recognize that i am looking at years of low income work just to get to 1,500 hours. Presently, i work for a size able corporation, doing work I am tired of and earning a $72k annual salary. I may have a management option in a few years, but do not see myself staying at this company.
But to consider going to work as a CFI for a couple of years just to build time is demoralizing. Then to go make $45k-$60k for a few years as a Regional FO is also hard to imagine. I suppose by years 3-4 i may be back up to my present salary. So easily 4-5 years of going backwards financially from my present income level.
I would hope from there the wages increase significantly. I'd like to make it my career path but with my age, and comfortable living situation i have acquired, its a bit risky. I want to make a smart move and don't want to be a glutton for punishment. Yet, it seems that is somehow built into the industry for new pilots. You have to suffer and get kicked in the balls for a few years before things start to payoff.
I also worry about flying reserve and commuting to base. I'm pretty stuck to where i live in Salt lake due to custody of my kids and the old ex wife.
On the upside, i see wages and bonuses are increasing and i hope that trend continues. I also hope the entire pipeline of pilot opportunities will keep moving so that older guys in my shoes can move up in seniority a little quicker.
Thanks to all of you that provide positive and realistic feedback on these forums!!!
But to consider going to work as a CFI for a couple of years just to build time is demoralizing. Then to go make $45k-$60k for a few years as a Regional FO is also hard to imagine. I suppose by years 3-4 i may be back up to my present salary. So easily 4-5 years of going backwards financially from my present income level.
I would hope from there the wages increase significantly. I'd like to make it my career path but with my age, and comfortable living situation i have acquired, its a bit risky. I want to make a smart move and don't want to be a glutton for punishment. Yet, it seems that is somehow built into the industry for new pilots. You have to suffer and get kicked in the balls for a few years before things start to payoff.
I also worry about flying reserve and commuting to base. I'm pretty stuck to where i live in Salt lake due to custody of my kids and the old ex wife.
On the upside, i see wages and bonuses are increasing and i hope that trend continues. I also hope the entire pipeline of pilot opportunities will keep moving so that older guys in my shoes can move up in seniority a little quicker.
Thanks to all of you that provide positive and realistic feedback on these forums!!!
#26
Anyone who has been told that there are airline pilots make $600k a year and believes them is very naive.
Quoted
"The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the average salary of a Commercial Pilot is $77,200 per year. The lowest-paid 10 percent of Commercial Pilots earn $39,430, while the highest-paid 10 percent earn more than $147,240 annually."
Quoted
"The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the average salary of a Commercial Pilot is $77,200 per year. The lowest-paid 10 percent of Commercial Pilots earn $39,430, while the highest-paid 10 percent earn more than $147,240 annually."
The market tells us that people are crunching the numbers, looking at ROI and overall quality of life and that's part of why there is shortage.
Beyond that the history
shows us the airlines making a bad name for themselves with extreme low pay. I remember when most regionals paid $12k a year for first year FO's.
Personally I think most of the problem is a general lack of interest in making a career in aviation.
Beyond that the history
shows us the airlines making a bad name for themselves with extreme low pay. I remember when most regionals paid $12k a year for first year FO's.
Personally I think most of the problem is a general lack of interest in making a career in aviation.
The problem is the initial cost of training, and the nearly nonexistent pay to get to 1500 hours, not the first year pay at a 121 carrier.
#27
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,401
I passed my commercial checkride less than a year ago, my first job paid $34k/year + tips (150-200/week), my second job with a bit of overtime paid $45k/year for the first 6 months, and now I'm at 1200 hours and will be on track to hit $85k, $100k if I want to work every bit of overtime available. Cumulative, my first year pilot income will be around $60k/year. I don't think it's a "nonexistent" pay at all. Next year base pay will be just under $95k with no overtime. Currently I fly 3 days a week, live home, have all weekends off and home every night.
My flight training, all in, including hour building, was just over $45k until I got hired at my first job.
So far, my ROI has been incredible.
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 198
I passed my commercial checkride less than a year ago, my first job paid $34k/year + tips (150-200/week), my second job with a bit of overtime paid $45k/year for the first 6 months, and now I'm at 1200 hours and will be on track to hit $85k, $100k if I want to work every bit of overtime available. Cumulative, my first year pilot income will be around $60k/year. I don't think it's a "nonexistent" pay at all. Next year base pay will be just under $95k with no overtime. Currently I fly 3 days a week, live home, have all weekends off and home every night.
My flight training, all in, including hour building, was just over $45k until I got hired at my first job.
So far, my ROI has been incredible.
My flight training, all in, including hour building, was just over $45k until I got hired at my first job.
So far, my ROI has been incredible.
Ps i have been hearing about this pilot shortage since 1999 and have yet to see any real shortage for good paying jobs please don’t give advice to people using best case scenarios in an industry that leans towards worse case scenarios.
Last edited by Firefighterpilo; 05-10-2018 at 05:17 AM.
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Position: Family guy
Posts: 144
I passed my commercial checkride less than a year ago, my first job paid $34k/year + tips (150-200/week), my second job with a bit of overtime paid $45k/year for the first 6 months, and now I'm at 1200 hours and will be on track to hit $85k, $100k if I want to work every bit of overtime available. Cumulative, my first year pilot income will be around $60k/year. I don't think it's a "nonexistent" pay at all. Next year base pay will be just under $95k with no overtime. Currently I fly 3 days a week, live home, have all weekends off and home every night.
My flight training, all in, including hour building, was just over $45k until I got hired at my first job.
So far, my ROI has been incredible.
My flight training, all in, including hour building, was just over $45k until I got hired at my first job.
So far, my ROI has been incredible.
Can you elaborate on the time building jobs you have worked and are currently working?? Thanks.
#30
Originally Posted by dera
I passed my commercial checkride less than a year ago, my first job paid $34k/year + tips (150-200/week), my second job with a bit of overtime paid $45k/year for the first 6 months, and now I'm at 1200 hours and will be on track to hit $85k, $100k if I want to work every bit of overtime available. Cumulative, my first year pilot income will be around $60k/year. I don't think it's a "nonexistent" pay at all. Next year base pay will be just under $95k with no overtime. Currently I fly 3 days a week, live home, have all weekends off and home every night.
My flight training, all in, including hour building, was just over $45k until I got hired at my first job.
So far, my ROI has been incredible.
To Firefighterpilot's point. Aviation is a business and one of its biggest expenses is fuel. Price of oil has been trending upward lately and with it the price of fuel. Issues with Iran and the Middle East in general can do things to the price of fuel that just can't be predicted with any certainty. Even Trump pulling out of the Nuclear Deal caused prices to rise with long term effects yet to be determined. Let's not forget that garden spot Iraq where Iran wields considerable sway through Shiite Militias/Shiite population and outright infiltration of the Iraqi government. Iran is even known to bribe the members of the Iraqi Parliament to maintain favorable "representation". Ultimately higher oil prices benefit these countries bottom line to the detriment of the transportation industry. I firmly believe after spending a fair amount of time there, is that at least some turmoil in the Middle East is good for them in the long run and they know it. For most of these countries oil is all they really have economically. My point after this long winded post is that your interests as a pilot are opposed by some very powerful entities and never take anything for granted.
I passed my commercial checkride less than a year ago, my first job paid $34k/year + tips (150-200/week), my second job with a bit of overtime paid $45k/year for the first 6 months, and now I'm at 1200 hours and will be on track to hit $85k, $100k if I want to work every bit of overtime available. Cumulative, my first year pilot income will be around $60k/year. I don't think it's a "nonexistent" pay at all. Next year base pay will be just under $95k with no overtime. Currently I fly 3 days a week, live home, have all weekends off and home every night.
My flight training, all in, including hour building, was just over $45k until I got hired at my first job.
So far, my ROI has been incredible.
You are new to aviation and so far have had no issues. I was a regional fo during the lost generation making 50k a year for seven years when I switched careers. You will get more credit once you have been in the industry awhile and got some 121 time under your belt. I started flying professionally in 2003 as a CFI and went through post 911 and the recession. when you have had hurdles, which you most definitely will, then you will have a better overall picture of the industry. Some of the guys on here have 30 plus years of industry experience. It would serve you well to listen and keep your ears open. Aviation can be a fickle mistress.
Ps i have been hearing about this pilot shortage since 1999 and have yet to see any real shortage for good paying jobs please don’t give advice to people using best case scenarios in an industry that leans towards worse case scenarios.
Ps i have been hearing about this pilot shortage since 1999 and have yet to see any real shortage for good paying jobs please don’t give advice to people using best case scenarios in an industry that leans towards worse case scenarios.
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