How many pilots stagnate getting to 1,500 hrs
#11
The 1500 hour rule is an arbitrary and political-protectionist barrier to entry that is unnecessary and has nothing to do with safety.
If people are willing to get their CFI and/or move throughout the country or be on the road for months at a time, then yes building those 1500 hours can happen in under 2 years.
If people are willing to get their CFI and/or move throughout the country or be on the road for months at a time, then yes building those 1500 hours can happen in under 2 years.
GF
#12
Yes, they are migrating to diesel (jet A) engines), they burn about half the fuel and it's cheaper too. There will also be battery-powered trainers soon enough.
But airplanes will not be getting much cheaper, and you can thank lawyers and stupid juries of our "peers" for that. A new ASEL that costs $300k probably actually costs half that, the rest of it is for "liability reserve", which the mfg puts in the bank to pay the inevitable lawsuits and settlements. I suspect that light GA airplanes probably have the highest liability reserve of any manufactured product.
Also... from a liability perspective, if the airplane is going to be IFR certified the manufacturer is pretty much going to go full glass with all the bells and whistles, simply to reduce the odds of crashes.
But airplanes will not be getting much cheaper, and you can thank lawyers and stupid juries of our "peers" for that. A new ASEL that costs $300k probably actually costs half that, the rest of it is for "liability reserve", which the mfg puts in the bank to pay the inevitable lawsuits and settlements. I suspect that light GA airplanes probably have the highest liability reserve of any manufactured product.
Also... from a liability perspective, if the airplane is going to be IFR certified the manufacturer is pretty much going to go full glass with all the bells and whistles, simply to reduce the odds of crashes.
#13
Incorrect.... the 1500 hour rule was implemented after Colgan but had nothing to do with the Colgan crash.
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 128
Sir, with all due respect, the '1500 hour rule' is a misnomer that should have been called the 'ATP rule'.
Colgan or not, I rather have an ATP rated pilot in the pointy end of the missile.
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 123
Ridiculous.
When I began flying and as my career progressed, the notion of making it to a commuter or regional with much less than 2,500 hours was a pipe dream. EVERYBODY has to put in their dues. Later, along came the crop of 250 hour wonders who began to think it was perfectly natural to run to an airline with a wet-ink commercial certificate. It became a matter of entitlement. Today there are those who cry because it takes an extra year or so, and they need at least 1,500 hours to get to regional jobs that pay first year first officers what captains used to make. Captains with years on the job.
People today don't have a freaking clue just how good they've got it, and yet whine and cry about needing 1,500 hours. Truly amazing. And disgusting.
It took me 15 years to get my first turbine job, and very very few will have to go through what many of us did to get that far. Today the silver spoon barely leaves the lips before its back in again and the curtain climbing career hopper is off to the races, convinced of himself that he's suffered aplenty while putting in his dues.
Stagnating because one must gain a little experience? Hardly. It's very difficult to feel any sympathy at all for those who feel the struggle too hard to get to 1,500 hours. It's barely scratching the surface.
That's rather capricious and non-sequitur. Glass cockpits don't "reduce the odds of crashes," and glass cockpits don't reduce "liability," or alter a manufacturers legal duty.
When I began flying and as my career progressed, the notion of making it to a commuter or regional with much less than 2,500 hours was a pipe dream. EVERYBODY has to put in their dues. Later, along came the crop of 250 hour wonders who began to think it was perfectly natural to run to an airline with a wet-ink commercial certificate. It became a matter of entitlement. Today there are those who cry because it takes an extra year or so, and they need at least 1,500 hours to get to regional jobs that pay first year first officers what captains used to make. Captains with years on the job.
People today don't have a freaking clue just how good they've got it, and yet whine and cry about needing 1,500 hours. Truly amazing. And disgusting.
It took me 15 years to get my first turbine job, and very very few will have to go through what many of us did to get that far. Today the silver spoon barely leaves the lips before its back in again and the curtain climbing career hopper is off to the races, convinced of himself that he's suffered aplenty while putting in his dues.
Stagnating because one must gain a little experience? Hardly. It's very difficult to feel any sympathy at all for those who feel the struggle too hard to get to 1,500 hours. It's barely scratching the surface.
That's rather capricious and non-sequitur. Glass cockpits don't "reduce the odds of crashes," and glass cockpits don't reduce "liability," or alter a manufacturers legal duty.
I guess I’m curious as to your perspective on the “pilot shortage?” Clearly airlines are feeling some kind of burden — is this because they got used to pulling in 250 FO’s or is this because people decided flying for an airline wasn’t worth the investment in the higher-than-average cost of education, followed by years of experience-building? Or do you see it as something else?
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#16
Originally Posted by MarkVI
Clearly airlines are feeling some kind of burden — is this because they got used to pulling in 250 FO’s or is this because people decided flying for an airline wasn’t worth the investment in the higher-than-average cost of education, followed by years of experience-building?
Requiring an ATP or R-ATP for 121 first officers did create a barrier of entry that restricted the supply of brand new, entry-level first officers available to regional airlines.
That, IMO, has less of an impact on "starts" of new aspiring professional pilots than the following:
1. career progression stagnation due to 121 mandatory retirement age change from 60 to 65 beginning Dec 2007,
2. Great Recession,
3. legacy airlines' whipsaw of regional carriers in mid-late 00s centered around rock-bottom costs,
4. legacy airline bankruptcy proceedings which decimated major airline compensation/retirement
Those four factors in concert made the cost/benefit for many aspiring pilots unappealing. Why would somebody incur $80k+ in debt for a college degree and flight training, only to slave for 4-5 years at a regional airline making $21-40k/yr while commuting or living in an expensive large metro area, then upgrade and only make $65-75k with no significant growth OR attrition at legacy carriers to create the "big sucking sound" pulling pilots upwards? And when you do finally "make it", you likely won't crack six figures until year 3-4, all the while pilots are getting older, having families, and trying to live their lives?
The juice just wasn't worth the squeeze for a while if you weren't already involved and invested.
Today, the situation is quite a bit different. Dec 2012 kicked off the delayed retirement wave which has yet to fully manifest itself, so with attrition from pilots going upward hurting retention and the entry barrier of holding an ATP hurting recruitment, regional airlines have been squeezed due to staffing. To cap this off, most regionals are operating under fixed fee-for-departure capacity lift agreements with their legacy partners which basically means opportunity to pass along increased crew costs (necessary to recruit qualified pilots and retain existing pilots) to their partners is nearly nonexistent, impacting profitability and possibly the ability to remain a going concern.
This regional airline economic reality is arguably the fault of the very legacy airlines who squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezed their regional lift a decade (or less) ago as far as they could to minimize costs.
The high cost of low overhead is coming home to roost - leading legacy airlines to increasingly in-source via smaller narrowbody growth as total regional aircraft in service decrease. And this is a good trend that we ALL should hope continues.
#17
BoilerUP,
I’d agree with the stagnation story UNTIL I met many corporate jet guys who learned to fly during the last 15-20 years, got jobs (admittedly in the NYC area) flying bizjets and never looked back. They were making pretty big money and working while others were beotching about stagnation. Yes, if you were hired at a regional, all excited to be a wet commercial with 251 hours flying a jet, stagnation meant you didn’t get the 767 seat you thought you deserved. Others worked on their careers, improved their resumes, and did well.
GF
I’d agree with the stagnation story UNTIL I met many corporate jet guys who learned to fly during the last 15-20 years, got jobs (admittedly in the NYC area) flying bizjets and never looked back. They were making pretty big money and working while others were beotching about stagnation. Yes, if you were hired at a regional, all excited to be a wet commercial with 251 hours flying a jet, stagnation meant you didn’t get the 767 seat you thought you deserved. Others worked on their careers, improved their resumes, and did well.
GF
#18
BoilerUP,
I’d agree with the stagnation story UNTIL I met many corporate jet guys who learned to fly during the last 15-20 years, got jobs (admittedly in the NYC area) flying bizjets and never looked back. They were making pretty big money and working while others were beotching about stagnation. Yes, if you were hired at a regional, all excited to be a wet commercial with 251 hours flying a jet, stagnation meant you didn’t get the 767 seat you thought you deserved. Others worked on their careers, improved their resumes, and did well.
GF
I’d agree with the stagnation story UNTIL I met many corporate jet guys who learned to fly during the last 15-20 years, got jobs (admittedly in the NYC area) flying bizjets and never looked back. They were making pretty big money and working while others were beotching about stagnation. Yes, if you were hired at a regional, all excited to be a wet commercial with 251 hours flying a jet, stagnation meant you didn’t get the 767 seat you thought you deserved. Others worked on their careers, improved their resumes, and did well.
GF
Dec 2007 Age 65 happens, Sept 2008 Lehman Bros happens, Great Recession starts and nearly all airlines stagnate.
Many, MANY 91 operations shut down over the next 2-4 years while Netjets furloughs hundreds.
I was promoted to CP in March 2008 at the age of 24 and was fortunate my company had long contracts, so we took delivery of a new plane in 2009 from the factory and hit block hour records in 2009, 2010 and 2011. I wasn't getting wealthy, but I was flying a brand-new jet as PIC while being a 'kid'. In the 2012-2013 range, I interviewed for two different large-cabin 91 operators and wasn't hired by either, as I "only flew a CJ"...but that experience helped me get hired by a major cargo carrier in 2014.
Did I stagnate? No...but I know lots and lots and lots of others that did, flying 121 regional and major and legacy and cargo and plenty of others that went through the job loss merry-go-round of 91/91K/135.
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