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Old 06-28-2018, 06:40 PM   #1  
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Default 4 Failed Primary training Checkrides.....

I know this is a big deal....and this is why I am asking this.

The scars are there....
I have failed 3/8 of the primary check rides that I have taken (CFI SE add on twice), so 4 fails in total;
1. Private ME--Short field Landing (400' long)
2. Comm SE--Chandelle (did not get to max pitch at 90 deg. point)
3. CFI SE Add on--DPE disapproved of the flight for a dirty windshield that deterred our view from the cockpit, as PIC I made a bad decision to take the plane out, and should have cleaned the plane prior to us taxiing.
4. CFI SE Add on (retest)---Failed the Short-field takeoff (airspeed got to 52 KIAS, DPE was not happy, and deservedly so. nerves got the best of me on this one.)

I have all of my ratings up to MEI (PRIV SE,ME, Inst., COM SE, ME, CFI, CFII, MEI).

-Although I would never make excuses for these failures, because YES there are many reasons for these failures and all of them point to me...However, I believe the SE failures were due to me having a total of 8.5 hours in a plane I never flew before between the Com SE and CFI SE for preparation for the check rides (I got my private SE in a DA-20, the COM SE and CFI SE check rides were taken in a C172), as the school I was at only had C172, and I was in an airline career program (I'm sure you can connect the dots as to what school i was at.....).


I have learned from these mistakes. I took the tests again, overcame the issues, and truly do feel like I am a better pilot from these traumatic incidents (and a hell of a lot more humble). After these issues, I have made sure that I am the best damn CFI I can be, as well as I am certain that I will not make this an issue for me at the 121 level.
I am trying to figure out if this is something I can explain and understand the repercussions that they will have for my career, or if this is ultimately something that will limit me in an interview, or even getting hired. I obviously understand I have to cut my teeth at a regional, but what are my chances of getting to a legacy IF I prove that I have learned from these mistakes, and succeed in 121 training? I am not sure if working at a regional the rest of my career is something I want to do, I want to be able to progress, and if this will hinder that, I would like to get some feedback as to how I can progress later in my career.

Will 4 busts be too hard to explain to a panel at a regional/Major/Legacy?
-Is this going to limit as to who I work for?
-Additionally, will this mean I will need more time at a regional? What will this mean in terms of me getting to my goal?

I obviously do not want to quit this, but if another line of work is something I need to accept, then I will accept it as such.



Thank you for your time and input.

Last edited by wetoolow; 06-28-2018 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 06-28-2018, 07:15 PM   #2  
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I know a guy who was just picked up by a regional with twice the checkride failures you have. You likely won't make it to Delta, but you'll be fine with many fine carriers.

Just don't try to explain the failures with "oh I only had x hours in the plane". I had just over 3 hours in type when I did my CP-ASEL. 8.5 is plenty.
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Old 06-28-2018, 07:35 PM   #3  
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I agree with that. And thank you, that is eye opening.....seems like that is an excuse I have come up with on my own. But I agree in that I would never use that as a justification, especially in an interview.

Thank you for making this feel a bit better, now I just need to press on and continue being the best damn CFI I can be.

Do you think these busts could force me to stay at a regional a bit longer than someone who has less Primary training failures?
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Old 06-28-2018, 07:46 PM   #4  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wetoolow View Post
I know this is a big deal....and this is why I am asking this.

The scars are there....
I have failed 3/8 of the primary check rides that I have taken (CFI SE add on twice), so 4 fails in total;
1. Private ME--Short field Landing (400' long)
2. Comm SE--Chandelle (did not get to max pitch at 90 deg. point)
3. CFI SE Add on--DPE disapproved of the flight for a dirty windshield that deterred our view from the cockpit, as PIC I made a bad decision to take the plane out, and should have cleaned the plane prior to us taxiing.
4. CFI SE Add on (retest)---Failed the Short-field takeoff (airspeed got to 52 KIAS, DPE was not happy, and deservedly so. nerves got the best of me on this one.)

I have all of my ratings up to MEI (PRIV SE,ME, Inst., COM SE, ME, CFI, CFII, MEI).

-Although I would never make excuses for these failures, because YES there are many reasons for these failures and all of them point to me...However, I believe the SE failures were due to me having a total of 8.5 hours in a plane I never flew before between the Com SE and CFI SE for preparation for the check rides (I got my private SE in a DA-20, the COM SE and CFI SE check rides were taken in a C172), as the school I was at only had C172, and I was in an airline career program (I'm sure you can connect the dots as to what school i was at.....).


I have learned from these mistakes. I took the tests again, overcame the issues, and truly do feel like I am a better pilot from these traumatic incidents (and a hell of a lot more humble). After these issues, I have made sure that I am the best damn CFI I can be, as well as I am certain that I will not make this an issue for me at the 121 level.
I am trying to figure out if this is something I can explain and understand the repercussions that they will have for my career, or if this is ultimately something that will limit me in an interview, or even getting hired. I obviously understand I have to cut my teeth at a regional, but what are my chances of getting to a legacy IF I prove that I have learned from these mistakes, and succeed in 121 training? I am not sure if working at a regional the rest of my career is something I want to do, I want to be able to progress, and if this will hinder that, I would like to get some feedback as to how I can progress later in my career.

Will 4 busts be too hard to explain to a panel at a regional/Major/Legacy?
-Is this going to limit as to who I work for?
-Additionally, will this mean I will need more time at a regional? What will this mean in terms of me getting to my goal?

I obviously do not want to quit this, but if another line of work is something I need to accept, then I will accept it as such.



Thank you for your time and input.
Until the pilot shortage gets worse, your best bet is going to an AA WO regional and using the flow as a backup while you try to get in with a career company.
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Old 06-28-2018, 08:13 PM   #5  
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Any excuse opens up another line of question.

If someone tells me that they have failed a ride because of only a few hours, my immediate question is why they took the ride in the first place; the message to me is poor judgement. We're paid for our judgement, not our monkey-skills at manipulating the airplane. The question here is whether one has the judgement to say he or she is not ready.

When a checkride is failed, it's rare that it's a single item. Frankly, if an applicant flies a perfect ride but makes one mistake, we do not fail them. When a clear pattern emerges and a mistake is made, that becomes the reason for the bust, but the fact is that the applicant will have numerous other reasons. It's the bigger picture.

If you failed a checkride due to a dirty window, there was certainly far more to the picture than a dirty window. It raises judgement questions again, but it's not just the window. It's not just landing 400' long. Remember that the underlying standard to all maneuvers and tasks is that the outcome be never seriously in doubt. Aeronautical Decision Making was added to the standard, along with scenario-based training to focus on the real world; these are the hallmarks that define a pilot.

The number of hours are irrelevant, except insofar as the regulatory requirements are met. Whether you fly one hour or ten or a hundred, you'll test when ready, especially if it's your call. When you work as a pilot, you'll be given limits to that. You'll be given a checkride or stage check and if you don't pass, you'll sometimes have one more shot, and you're done. I've represented a lot of pilots at hearings following training failures, and in many cases, there was some negotiation involved to get them the chance at another shot.

An airline or operator needs to know that their employees can take seriously the fate of the company and the flight and the passengers and the hundreds of millions of dollars that rest in each pilot's hands every time they enter the runway for takeoff. A failure of a line flight can change the direction of aviation. Colgan's failure certainly did, and that failure went back to numerous failures in the pilot's pasts.

Four failures do not change your fate, but you have got to take this a whole lot more seriously than you have in the past. You have got to establish a clean record in the future and show a solid employment history. You're going to have numerous checkrides, every few months for the remainder of your working life. Every one needs to be passed. You need to have an excellent track record.

Focus on that.
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Old 06-28-2018, 08:52 PM   #6  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wetoolow View Post
I agree with that. And thank you, that is eye opening.....seems like that is an excuse I have come up with on my own. But I agree in that I would never use that as a justification, especially in an interview.

Thank you for making this feel a bit better, now I just need to press on and continue being the best damn CFI I can be.

Do you think these busts could force me to stay at a regional a bit longer than someone who has less Primary training failures?
It really is an excuse of your own making.

I would go to a WO regional, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the majors won't hire pilots with "excessive" checkride failures - 4 might be considered excessive by some. Being at a WO would be a good "life insurance".

It's not a career ender, but if you can't explain them better than "I didn't have enough time in the plane", then they might become one.
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Old 06-29-2018, 04:30 AM   #7  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wetoolow View Post
I agree with that. And thank you, that is eye opening.....seems like that is an excuse I have come up with on my own. But I agree in that I would never use that as a justification, especially in an interview.

Thank you for making this feel a bit better, now I just need to press on and continue being the best damn CFI I can be.

Do you think these busts could force me to stay at a regional a bit longer than someone who has less Primary training failures?
Yes, absolutely.

Everybody in aviation understands that general aviation training and checking is very inconsistent, so one or even two busts would not be a huge deal. But four is going to delay you, for starter's you're probably not eligible for employment with an AA wholly owned, but I would try that first due to the flow.

Odds are that the best you'll do is second tier major (still not a bad life).

You'll need to come up with an explanation (NOT an excuse) for what happened, and be able to articulate what you learned. They want to know that you accept responsibility, and that you made a change to keep it from happening again.

That's the easy part... you also need to never fail another training event until you complete probation at your career destination airline. If you do, you're probably a regional lifer.

Part of the problem is public perception... even if the majors thought you had corrected your training challenges, they are concerned with how your record will look in media coverage (and the trial) following an accident (Google Renslow). So the history will be with you for life.
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Old 06-29-2018, 04:59 AM   #8  
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I am going to assume you are referring to ATP.

Well, it looks like they got another one.

Your screwed
This is on your record forever. It doesn't matter how many hours you log; how many type ratings you get; or how may years go by. This is going to come up in every single pilot application you fill out and the computer is going to block your application like a virus.

How anyone chooses to go to ATP post Colgan 3407 is truly mind blowing.

Going to ATP before Colgan was pretty high risk. Going to ATP post Colgan is just being stupid with money
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Old 06-29-2018, 05:55 AM   #9  
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Look forward, NOT BACK. Make no excuses - own it. However, you must establish a 100% success record in the 121 world and it will probably take 5 or more years to overcome it.
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Old 06-29-2018, 06:14 AM   #10  
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IF you get hired. Be prepared for it to be at a regional with a poor (heartless) training program. Your not going to end up some reputable regional with decent training
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