Seniority Question for 2nd Career Pilot
11-21-2018, 10:51 AM
#11
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,224
The math says get your seniority. But the trade-off between the intangible value of seniority vs. the peace of mind of having more retirement locked in is hard to quantify.
Do you value QOL more than money?
Do you value QOL more than money?
11-21-2018, 05:21 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,191
$3600 a year is $300 a month.
I’ve probably just had, or missed, holidays off or specific vacations numerous times in my career. A class or a month was the difference between success or failure while bidding. Eight months can be a life time.
Eight months gives you eight months at the end of your career. It means, on average but reality will the all over the map depending on specific bases, etc, that you upgrade eight months earlier. And become a line holder eight months sooner.
A couple of years ago a guy hired a year ahead of me earned $100,000 more than I did. That’s the value of being hired a year earlier. And he’s retiring two yrs sooner. We’ll have the same reitirement but earning more money sooner means he can retire two years sooner with the same retirement.
Figuring out the dollar value, or QOL/QWL, of being hired eight months sooner is tough to quantify. I doubt any guy on a major seniority list would trade eight months seniority for $300 a month for life.
I’ve probably just had, or missed, holidays off or specific vacations numerous times in my career. A class or a month was the difference between success or failure while bidding. Eight months can be a life time.
Eight months gives you eight months at the end of your career. It means, on average but reality will the all over the map depending on specific bases, etc, that you upgrade eight months earlier. And become a line holder eight months sooner.
A couple of years ago a guy hired a year ahead of me earned $100,000 more than I did. That’s the value of being hired a year earlier. And he’s retiring two yrs sooner. We’ll have the same reitirement but earning more money sooner means he can retire two years sooner with the same retirement.
Figuring out the dollar value, or QOL/QWL, of being hired eight months sooner is tough to quantify. I doubt any guy on a major seniority list would trade eight months seniority for $300 a month for life.
11-21-2018, 07:07 PM
#13
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,224
Originally Posted by Sliceback
$3600 a year is $300 a month.
I’ve probably just had, or missed, holidays off or specific vacations numerous times in my career. A class or a month was the difference between success or failure while bidding. Eight months can be a life time.
Eight months gives you eight months at the end of your career. It means, on average but reality will the all over the map depending on specific bases, etc, that you upgrade eight months earlier. And become a line holder eight months sooner.
A couple of years ago a guy hired a year ahead of me earned $100,000 more than I did. That’s the value of being hired a year earlier. And he’s retiring two yrs sooner. We’ll have the same reitirement but earning more money sooner means he can retire two years sooner with the same retirement.
Figuring out the dollar value, or QOL/QWL, of being hired eight months sooner is tough to quantify. I doubt any guy on a major seniority list would trade eight months seniority for $300 a month for life.
I’ve probably just had, or missed, holidays off or specific vacations numerous times in my career. A class or a month was the difference between success or failure while bidding. Eight months can be a life time.
Eight months gives you eight months at the end of your career. It means, on average but reality will the all over the map depending on specific bases, etc, that you upgrade eight months earlier. And become a line holder eight months sooner.
A couple of years ago a guy hired a year ahead of me earned $100,000 more than I did. That’s the value of being hired a year earlier. And he’s retiring two yrs sooner. We’ll have the same reitirement but earning more money sooner means he can retire two years sooner with the same retirement.
Figuring out the dollar value, or QOL/QWL, of being hired eight months sooner is tough to quantify. I doubt any guy on a major seniority list would trade eight months seniority for $300 a month for life.
11-22-2018, 04:33 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 652
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
Remember, your DOH at a regional means nothing if and when you go to a major or legacy carrier. So, the additional income now might offset the lower pay at a regional. Will delaying hiring at the regional effect your possible DOH at your career airline? That’s hard to say now.
The bet isn’t about losing 8 months at age 65, but about getting hired at a major or legacy.
GF
The bet isn’t about losing 8 months at age 65, but about getting hired at a major or legacy.
GF
11-22-2018, 06:47 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: A-320
Posts: 1,122
Your goal should be to get to a major airline ASAP. Waiting 8 months could put you on the back side of the hiring curve. That will mean taking longer for every milestone in your career and a major hit in pay. If another downturn happens, 8 months could be the difference between having a job or being furloughed.
11-22-2018, 09:13 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,191
The difference between being furloughed and not furloughed is always one class. Sometimes the split might be in the same class.
At the top end an eight month difference was four years longer to get to the larger planes. It was about an 8 yr difference to constantly hold a schedule. That's the difference between myself and someone hired 8 months ahead of me. Due to timing the guys 8 months behind me didn't take an additional four yrs to be able to hold the same seat as I did. But they did lose years as CA, and a couple of years as w/b CA, due to furloughs and cutbacks.
The problem is you don't know if the eight month delay in getting hired will create 4-8 yr delays in upgrading to different seats or only 1-2 yrs. Which is why getting your seniority number sooner has value.
At the top end an eight month difference was four years longer to get to the larger planes. It was about an 8 yr difference to constantly hold a schedule. That's the difference between myself and someone hired 8 months ahead of me. Due to timing the guys 8 months behind me didn't take an additional four yrs to be able to hold the same seat as I did. But they did lose years as CA, and a couple of years as w/b CA, due to furloughs and cutbacks.
The problem is you don't know if the eight month delay in getting hired will create 4-8 yr delays in upgrading to different seats or only 1-2 yrs. Which is why getting your seniority number sooner has value.
11-22-2018, 12:46 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Position: B787 FO
Posts: 295
Seniority numbers are valuable....after 9/11 I spent the better part of a decade as an RJ Captain....my buddy about 120 numbers junior, spent the time as an RJ FO. The financial difference between $37 something an hour or over $80 an hour for a decade is sizeable.
The industry is different now, but changes to retirement age, fuel prices, and automation could drastically alter pilot demand.....Id rather be senior and forego $300 a month.
The industry is different now, but changes to retirement age, fuel prices, and automation could drastically alter pilot demand.....Id rather be senior and forego $300 a month.
11-22-2018, 04:35 PM
#18
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,481
Originally Posted by TheRaven
Seniority numbers are valuable....after 9/11 I spent the better part of a decade as an RJ Captain....my buddy about 120 numbers junior, spent the time as an RJ FO. The financial difference between $37 something an hour or over $80 an hour for a decade is sizeable.
The industry is different now, but changes to retirement age, fuel prices, and automation could drastically alter pilot demand.....Id rather be senior and forego $300 a month.
The industry is different now, but changes to retirement age, fuel prices, and automation could drastically alter pilot demand.....Id rather be senior and forego $300 a month.
A rising tide of hiring Is going to lift a lot of boats.
11-22-2018, 05:07 PM
#19
All is fine at .79
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: Paahlot
Posts: 4,082
Here’s my argument:
You’re assuming you’ll make it all the way to 65 in the airline industry without another economic downturn (or two), furlough ( or two) and without illness that may temporarily or permanently disqualify you from a medical.
That $300/month may just be the difference between you being at home enjoying time with your (grand) kids or bagging groceries.
You’re assuming you’ll make it all the way to 65 in the airline industry without another economic downturn (or two), furlough ( or two) and without illness that may temporarily or permanently disqualify you from a medical.
That $300/month may just be the difference between you being at home enjoying time with your (grand) kids or bagging groceries.
11-23-2018, 05:48 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,191
If a furlough is your concern getting hired sooner reduces the odds of that occurring. You'd be 300-800 numbers more senior if you got hired 8 months sooner.
And today's market is much better for a furloughed pilot than it was back in 2002 or 2008. The retirement bubble means that a 15% furlough (typical large furlough percentage) would need to be recalled in under 2 yrs once retirements reach 5-6(?) percent. Just stopping hiring today is the same as a 5% furlough over a year. From that perspective it's the best time, ever, to get into the airline business. There's no need for growth as guys aging out is creating a huge demand.
And today's market is much better for a furloughed pilot than it was back in 2002 or 2008. The retirement bubble means that a 15% furlough (typical large furlough percentage) would need to be recalled in under 2 yrs once retirements reach 5-6(?) percent. Just stopping hiring today is the same as a 5% furlough over a year. From that perspective it's the best time, ever, to get into the airline business. There's no need for growth as guys aging out is creating a huge demand.
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