Help!!!
 

I’m a 50 year old career changer. Learned to fly many years ago. Between life and family obligations I put an airline career on hold.

I decided to give it a try and got on with a Part 135 operation, upgraded, etc. and made the leap to the regionals.

I was washed out of training and got a second chance at another regional and it looks like I might not make it here. My challenge both times is automation and keeping up with all the flows, callouts, etc. I’ve not failed any check rides and just passed my oral.

If this doesn’t work out, I will not try to get on with another regional. I cannot put myself, family through this a third time, nor am I interested in this type of flying anymore if given a third chance (and I know people who’ve gotten third chances at regionals). What might be a good option for a person like me? I have turboprop time and any jet time I have is sim.

Thanks

Grab your study/sim partner and go visit the “paper tiger” cockpit mockup and “chair fly” the various scenarios as much as possible in your free time. You must not give up here! You need to learn how to “think ahead” , make the required callouts, appropriate automation managment and ultimately be able to think at least 8 miles per minute to stay ahead of the jet. Not easy, but YOU CAN DO IT with practice and support from your class (team) mates.

What did you fly in 135, turboprops or piston? If steam gauges are more to your liking, that might be the way to go... 135 and then maybe 91 corporate (if you can find a long-term gig with better QOL than typical 135).

If you haven't flown old-school turboprops, it is a bit busier and more complex than typical piston planes but typically slower and with fewer techie bells and whistles than modern glass jets.

I would advise you to carefully assess your natural aptitude (flying is not worth getting killed over), but since you flew 135 I assume you're comfortable with complex planes in IFR.

It's tougher to learn when you're older, I've observed that as an instructor and experienced it myself. I've had success by living a very healthy lifestyle before and during training... plenty of cardio exercise, minimal crap food and booze, lots of veggies and brain food. You can literally feel the cognitive improvement after about one week of living right.

But if you're still in the game... flows, callouts, and FMS procedures is the meat of what you need to learn. Practice those your buddy (a must!) and maximize use of whatever FMS trainer is available.

You could look at corporates, but training in bizjets is just as complex if less anal in doing everything like a machine. We went thru CL 200 school for the CL 850 (corporate CRJ) and repeatedly wrote up the program. “Call for push”; we don’t push, for example. But the type courses are shorter than airline training and require a pretty high level of proficiency in jet ops.


Gf

I wasn't suggesting bizjets, but rather props in 91/135.

Like stated above, go get a large cup of coffee and spend an exhausting amount of time in front of the paper tiger (or the FPT if they'll let you) practicing call outs and procedures. Mentally walk through the steps of the automation. Walk through how you join a LOC inbound when you're in FMS, when you're in HDG, etc. Do all you can to pass.

If you don't, you don't.

And if you don't, maybe airline flying isn't for you. That not necessarily a bad thing. It's easy to be discouraged, but think about it honestly; if you can't pass through this, would you feel comfortable in the real plane with people on board?

Plenty of other options for someone like yourself. You've got to have a good attitude and be able to exploit your network. Much will depend on where you live and what you're willing to put up with. But honestly, just pass this stupid check ride. I believe in you. Do it.

I did see that his experience was in 91/135 turboprops and that could work, but the environment in bizjet ops is more relaxed, less time-critical, less choreographed, which was my point. A type course isn’t easy, if he wasn’t jet experienced but he might fit in better.


GF

Thanks everyone for your responses. I was out of flying for over ten years when I got the 135 job flying a turboprop. As of now, I’m current as I did a lot of flying on the turboprop gig and got a good bit of time with instructors before I started that job. My challenge now is automation and keeping up with all of the flows, callouts, procedures. My sims have been non events outside of the automation. At the first regional it was callouts, automation and aircraft control.

Don’t want to come across as to much of a hard ass, but theres 100% no excuses for not having call outs and flows down, I have seen it before and the case is always lack of effort or work. You should be chair flying and setting at the paper tiger on 100% of your free time until you get it, sim partner doesn’t want to help, to bad, still do it by yourself or someone else, it’s all on you, no excuses, as for harder to learn when your older, I’ve been in the sim and on line with a lot more sharp 60 yo pilots then 35 yo lol

There's always individual variation, and successful older guys tend to learn how to adapt to changes. Especially if they're like me... between airlines and military I've had training events of one sort or another about every two years for my entire career.

But the older guys who have the most trouble have been away from flying for a while, or were flying one plane (typically an RJ) for 15-20 years. The trap they fall into is trying to do things the same way they did when they were 25 (often in the company of 25 y/o olds). Wouldn't work for me, rote memory takes more work now (fortunately it still sticks once I get it).... and I'm not even that old. You have to take a more deliberate approach, and of course work a bit harder.

I went from 18 years in a steam gauge C-5; instructor/evaluator pilot, 5,000 hours to a Challenger with glass cockpit—it was hard work at 52. I sympathize with the OP. 121 ops has a lot of complications with flows, call-outs both have to be accomplished quickly and with small tolerance for error as a new hire. Add in self-induced pressure going thru the training a second time, I see were he’s at.

Yes, chair fly it, use the paper plane, rehearse it repeatedly.

GF

I went from 18 years in a steam gauge C-5; instructor/evaluator pilot, 5,000 hours to a Challenger with glass cockpit—it was hard work at 52. I sympathize with the OP. 121 ops has a lot of complications with flows, call-outs both have to be accomplished quickly and with small tolerance for error as a new hire. Add in self-induced pressure going thru the training a second time, I see were he’s at.

Yes, chair fly it, use the paper plane, rehearse it repeatedly.

Thank you folks. I’ll continue to push where I’m at obviously. Chair fly, more chair flying and then more. My waking hours are divided between study, chair flying, eating and sims.

I think much of my challenge is simply the choreography of flows, callouts, automation and aircraft control simultaneously. I don’t doubt I can get this. I only wonder if it’ll be in the time they’re giving. I’ll keep on and you guys have given me some good advice. Thank you.

In addition to the chair fly, chair fly, chair fly advice, ask for help/advice from your instructors/training center. They may or may not be willing to, but attitude is huge. If they know you are working your butt off and not out screwing around, most places/instructors will bend over backwards to try to help.

Waiting until you've busted out is to late...

Was just told that I have to go before the training review board.

All about attitude!....
My last sim partner had the same troubles, 15 years of steam gauges and old school jet flying. The 121 and glass killed him! Several repeated lessons and the training review board. But, he had a good attitude, worked with them and passed. He is a safe, trained pilot now.

I thought I would wait to post an update. I went before the training review board and they agreed to give me a couple of warm up sims and then recheck on the sim that I’m having problems with.

I’ve done the warm up sims and have to recheck in a couple of days. The warm ups were worse than the original sims that got me to the training review board in the first place. The second of them was a total disaster. Things that I used to do well, are now not going well and things that I struggled with have gotten worse. This is bizarre and frustrating to say the least.

Again, I don’t doubt that I can complete this successfully, I question if I can do it in the time the company expects me to do it in. I know I’m not the first or last person to be in this situation, so I’ll continue on. Just like you fly the airplane until the last part stops moving, I’ll continue forward until the last movement of the sim.

Thank you to everyone for all of the advice. I’ll continue to plug away and will do the recheck in a couple of days. If I do well, the next flight is the check ride. If not, probably another all expense paid guest appearance before the training review board or something else. To date, I’ve no check ride failures for any ratings and I don’t intend to start now if I can help it. Thank you again folks.

I believe You have hit the classic “training plateau”. It is 100% normal and I bet you have probably Experienced a plateau and overcome it at some point previously in your aviation career. Hopefully the training dept will recognize this and work with you to get through it.

Agree regarding the training department. Who knows I might go in and nail it too. Again I’m totally confident that I can do this.

Passed ATP and type ride. Thanks for the advice folks.

Congratulations. Love the happy ending to this story.

Great to hear!

Glad to hear it!

IOE should be fun, the only thing which occasionally gets people is visual approaches in a jet. Your 135 experience should help, but have some numbers and speed/configuration gates in your hip pocket for straight in and downwind visuals. Ask your IOE CKA on day one if they didn't give you that in training.

Also know how to configure and dive for the GP, slam dunks happen regularly and must be managed quickly with a jet.

Awesome news, I am so glad you overcame that obstacle and really appreciate your “happy ending” follow-up.
Cheers!

Congrats.
Stay away from ‘visual approaches’ during IOE.
That and don’t do anything stupid during your probationary year.

Big congrats!! Clearly you put in a lot of work, nice job.

Thanks guys. I got typed on the EJet which is simply a computer with wings, but I did it!

Damn, I'm in the same boat as you, but I haven't applied anywhere yet. I've got a good amount of jet time as FO in the 727, so I don't think I'll have the same problems hopefully.

I honestly feel I'm more capable now than I was when I went through training in my late 20's/early 30's. I definitely understand systems better than I did back then.

And congrats on passing. Glad to see you overcome the adversity. Good luck the rest of the way bud.

Finished IOE today! Thanks for the support folks.

Nice! I hope it was fun!

Happy for you! :p

I'd love to hear how the OP is doing along the way now that he made it to the line. It's been rough for half the class at least, to say the least. I've been looking here and there for a morale boost and this thread looks like a ray of hope.

Wow. That is really unusual. Is there anything in particular that people in your class struggled with?

Nothing in particular, but more of a feeling of impending doom because of perceived emphasis anomalies. EG: We spent a 45 minutes in systems on ELECTRICAL (slides mechanically read by a guy who never flew the jet), and 4 hours practicing opening emergency exits. That is one example of why we are afraid of the oral. I removed the line in my post because I want to try and get past the Oral and Sims without calling any more attention to myself lol.

An airline job is one in which one is expected to help one's self: study. One cannot and should not expect to breeze through the training and pass on the strength of classroom lectures alone. Those who did the bare minimum to get through their primary training (eg, Shepherd Air and memorizing answers) may be in for a rude awakening.

Yup, we learned that lesson right away. We are learning systems 100% on our own, and find the classroom to primarily (for now at least) be negative training, as there are conflicts between the lecture materials, the instructor, and the ASM. We are relying on the AOM and ASM, and studying after hours. Unfortunately we are mandated to be in class from 9 hours a day, and therein lies the problem. I'd prefer to be given more time away from "death by monotone power point reader guy who never flew the jet" to just study the ASM etc. End rant.

Well... That’s not really unusual. It sucks the guy never flew the plane, but it definitely happens. Spending 45 mins on electrical slides is definitely not bad, and could be a lot worse. I think we spent all day talking about the propeller when I was in Brasília ground school. We absolutely spent more than 45 mins talking about electrical on that plane too.

Doors training seems excessive for four hours... But I’m assuming that was also including testing emergency equipment?

I agree with the other poster that a lot of self study is required in 121. They will not spoon feed you, and that goes for the majors as well (often times the major airline training programs aren’t as good as some regionals).

Conflicting material is definitely frustrating, and for that you definitely have my sympathy. You’re doing the right thing though by studying what you can. If it gets bad enough, I would consider asking for a different instructor.

Study the material in advance so that when you sit through the classroom lecture, it confirms what you've already read, and have any questions ready at that time.

Study groups are your friend.

Your walls should be plastered with posters, flash cards, lists, systems, procedures, etc. They should be inside the bathroom door, so when you sit on the toilet, you're repeating memory items. On the mirror. By the bed. All over the TV, because you should be watching those cards rather than the evening news. Live it, eat it, breathe it, sleep it.

Get yourself a little airplane model and put it on the counter and stare at it while you're pacing the room rehearsing systems, bold face items, etc. Quiz your buddies, let them quiz you. Highlight the hell out of everything until Sharpie gives you stock, then put notes in the margins, and if you have electronic books, then burn up a box of stylus.

It might save your life one day.