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Old 05-29-2019, 04:32 AM   #1  
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Default PIC, TPIC, SIC? what's the difference.

Sorry I tried researching this on my own but I cant find what I'm looking for. I see TPIC thrown around a lot and I would like some clarification of what it means. I understand what SIC and PIC are but I am wondering once I start out as a FO will all of my time be SIC even if I am manipulating the controls? Will I have to wait to make captain before logging PIC? Is there any benefit to logging SIC? Will future employers see my flight time as a FO as of any value or is it the captain time that really matters? TPIC=total PIC?
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Old 05-29-2019, 05:16 AM   #2  
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PIC is Pilot in Command Time. This is time you log during solo flights, flights operated using your Private or Commercial certificate, flights operated as a CFI, etc. This does not include flights when you are being given flight instruction by a CFI.
SIC is second in command time. This is time you log when you are operating as a First Officer on an aircraft that requires two pilots.
TPIC is time you can log when operating a Turbine powered aircraft as Pilot in Command. This includes most jet powered aircraft and Turbo Props. You must possess an ATP rating and a type rating for the aircraft you are operating. Also you must be the person you signs for the aircraft as the Captain.
All time is valuable. Total time is very important. Most major airlines used to require 1000 hours of TPIC to even apply. Now that requirement is gone, however it is still an important milestone to be competitive at most Legacy carriers. In the last several, many people have been hired without any TPIC by legacy airlines, however unless you possess some other impressive qualification (think chief pilots son, winner of a major airline scholarship, interned in flight ops at a legacy airline). You should still plan on upgrading to Captain and building that 1000 TPIC.
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Old 05-29-2019, 05:53 AM   #3  
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This does not include flights when you are being given flight instruction by a CFI.
It does if you are already properly rated in the aircraft, like private pilot doing a commercial certificate or instrument rating.

Ultimately, outside of using them to get a certificate or rating, these are whatever airlines want them to be for the purposes of their application. Definition for PIC is in part 61. There is no "TPIC".
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Old 05-29-2019, 05:54 AM   #4  
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Turbine time is of course the key value for airlines, and TPIC is the icing on the cake.

Non-turbine PIC and flight time generally only matters to regionals who need applicants who are ATP eligible. Although if you somehow acquired a lot of piston PIC in some niche 135 or 121 operation I imagine that would count for something.

SIC in this context is kind of *assumed* to be turbine, since most planes and operations which require an SIC are turbine.

In the military context, it's all turbine time, unless you were doing something really weird (OGA?).
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Old 05-29-2019, 05:56 AM   #5  
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It does if you are already properly rated in the aircraft, like private pilot doing a commercial certificate or instrument rating.
Per FARs, yes. Airlines typically want you to separate "signed for the airplane" PIC from dual received PIC. The totals will (should) add up in the end.

For Noobs I would suggest keeping a separate column for dual given/sole manipulator PIC, just to make your life easy when you apply to majors and have to sort out 5000 hours the way THEY want to see it.
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Old 05-29-2019, 06:56 AM   #6  
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Thanks that clears something's up a bit. When some one logs "dual" are they saying they are PIC Even though they are not sole manipulator of the controls? For example 2 people flying with a private pilots liscence each, one is the sole manipulator of the controls the other acting as PIC and signing/taking full responsibility of the aircraft?
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Old 05-29-2019, 08:07 AM   #7  
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Turbine time is of course the key value for airlines, and TPIC is the icing on the cake.
Although if you somehow acquired a lot of piston PIC in some niche 135 or 121 operation I imagine that would count for something.
Anecdotally (two recruiters for different ULCCs) have told me that they at least are looking with increased interest at those with significant ME piston PIC time in non-FMS aircraft (ie., lugging boxes through the dark) after recent incidents where aircrew seemed to be overly dependent on automation and ill equipped to control the aircraft if it fails. TPIC certainly does remain the coin of the realm though, as would be expected.
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Old 05-29-2019, 08:13 AM   #8  
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Thanks that clears something's up a bit. When some one logs "dual" are they saying they are PIC Even though they are not sole manipulator of the controls? For example 2 people flying with a private pilots liscence each, one is the sole manipulator of the controls the other acting as PIC and signing/taking full responsibility of the aircraft?
Two pilots in a 172, both private pilot, both rated for the airplane (airplane, single-engine land). Pilot A manipulates the controls. Pilot B is the acting pilot in command. Pilot A may log the time as pilot in command. Pilot B may not log any time.

Pilot A puts on a view limiting device. Pilot B continues to act as pilot in command, and as safety pilot. He is now a required crew member, as safety pilot. Both may log pilot in command. Pilot A is sole manipulator, and pilot B is acting as PIC of an airplane requiring more than one crewmember.

Pilot A continues to wear the view limiting device. Pilot A acts as pilot in command. Pilot B is the safety pilot. Pilot A may log PIC as sole manipulator. Pilot B may only log SIC; he's a required crewmember, but not acting as pilot in command.

Pilot A is a private pilot, airplane, single-engine land. He rents a 172 to take Jimmy, his non-pilot nephew, for a flight. Jimmy manipulates the controls, and of course, Pilot A is pilot in command. Nobody may log the time.

There is a difference between logging flight time, and acting as pilot in command. Logging time under the regulation as spelled out in 14 CFR 61.51 does not necessarily mean that one has actually been the pilot in command of the flight. The pilot in command is the person who holds final authority for the flight.

Acting pilot in command is taking the full responsibility for final operation of the flight. In an airline setting, the airline designates the pilot in command for the trip, and that person remains the pilot in command, regardless of who manipulates the controls. As pilot in command, he logs the time as PIC for the duration of the flight. The second in command, although rated for the airplane, logs SIC.

While the regulation will allow the SIC to log the time as PIC if rated, and sole manipulator of the controls, one who does this and attempts to pass it off as PIC will be seen as cheating and inflating their time, and it shows a level of ignorance that will not impress an employer. It lowers the standing of the applicant in the eyes of the interviewer. It's legally ok, but doesn't pass the "smell" test, because the reality is that the person logging that time wasn't really the pilot in command. For an airline perspective, if you weren't the acting pilot in command, don't log it that way.
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Old 05-30-2019, 03:19 AM   #9  
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Two pilots in a 172, both private pilot, both rated for the airplane (airplane, single-engine land). Pilot A manipulates the controls. Pilot B is the acting pilot in command. Pilot A may log the time as pilot in command. Pilot B may not log any time.

Pilot A puts on a view limiting device. Pilot B continues to act as pilot in command, and as safety pilot. He is now a required crew member, as safety pilot. Both may log pilot in command. Pilot A is sole manipulator, and pilot B is acting as PIC of an airplane requiring more than one crewmember.

Pilot A continues to wear the view limiting device. Pilot A acts as pilot in command. Pilot B is the safety pilot. Pilot A may log PIC as sole manipulator. Pilot B may only log SIC; he's a required crewmember, but not acting as pilot in command.

Pilot A is a private pilot, airplane, single-engine land. He rents a 172 to take Jimmy, his non-pilot nephew, for a flight. Jimmy manipulates the controls, and of course, Pilot A is pilot in command. Nobody may log the time.

There is a difference between logging flight time, and acting as pilot in command. Logging time under the regulation as spelled out in 14 CFR 61.51 does not necessarily mean that one has actually been the pilot in command of the flight. The pilot in command is the person who holds final authority for the flight.

Acting pilot in command is taking the full responsibility for final operation of the flight. In an airline setting, the airline designates the pilot in command for the trip, and that person remains the pilot in command, regardless of who manipulates the controls. As pilot in command, he logs the time as PIC for the duration of the flight. The second in command, although rated for the airplane, logs SIC.

While the regulation will allow the SIC to log the time as PIC if rated, and sole manipulator of the controls, one who does this and attempts to pass it off as PIC will be seen as cheating and inflating their time, and it shows a level of ignorance that will not impress an employer. It lowers the standing of the applicant in the eyes of the interviewer. It's legally ok, but doesn't pass the "smell" test, because the reality is that the person logging that time wasn't really the pilot in command. For an airline perspective, if you weren't the acting pilot in command, don't log it that way.
Thank you very much!
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Old 05-30-2019, 03:46 AM   #10  
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TPIC is time you can log when operating a Turbine powered aircraft as Pilot in Command. This includes most jet powered aircraft and Turbo Props. You must possess an ATP rating and a type rating for the aircraft you are operating. Also you must be the person you signs for the aircraft as the Captain.
I would think all jets and turboprops fall into the turbine powered category by definition. But there's no requirement to hold an ATP to fly them outside the 121 world. And there's no type rating for many turboprop airplanes, those under 12.5 max takeoff weight.
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