Career change from sales to flying
 

I’m a total noob here and wanting to get the thoughts and opinions from those of you flying professionally. I graduated from a well known aviation school with an Aeronautics degree, I also obtained my PPL from there. I always intended to finish my certs but life always had different plans. I recently completed my MBA and currently work in sales. The money is good when the commissions are coming in but when they’re not... well I might as well be a fist year at a regional. The bottom line is, money aside I’m miserable in this job. I always find myself regretting not finishing my ratings. So, after that long winded introduction my question is, at 34 do I still have time to finish my ratings (likely part 61) and still have a shot at making it to the majors some day?

Anything’s possible, but there are hundreds or, more accurately, thousands of RJ pilots still waiting on the interview call at any major. Lots of talent out there. Then, the military pilots and waiting on the sidelines heavy corporate pilots. I’d be leery of cries of pilot shortage.

GF

Shortage may too strong of a word as far as the better majors go.

But they will have to hire more, and they've already made deep withdrawals from the cream of the corporate crop and discretionary mil pilots (those who have the credentials and have completed their obligations, but chose non-airline paths). So future pilot supply is now limited to whatever the mil produces at steady state (their accumulator is now essentially empty), and whatever the GA pipeline and regional path can produce on the civilian side. IMO they have already about exhausted their surplus pool which was waiting in the wings and the retirements are nowhere near full stride yet.

There will better opportunities for new entrants (higher than normal odds of success at getting to a major). And if you do make it to the top tier, all but SWA have a lot of retirements, so your seniority will progress rapidly by historical standards.

So still some risk in the career, with no guarantee of a big-six job, but even so there's a trickle-down effect... since the big boys will be sucking up all the top candidates, almost anyone will be able to get on with lower tiers (most of whom don't have the mass retirements, so that's an entirely different career proposition).

rickair777,

I’m probably a bit jaded from too many predictions of pilot hiring being a vertical upward curve to be taken in. Yes, it looks great today—retirements spread over a decade, fewer starts, a drawn down military force. What could possibly go wrong?

That said, in my day part-time job, I’m seeing charter operators with very low time co-pilots, fewer resumes with anything like decent experience. Maybe this time.

GF

I’m 33 and in sales with 250 hrs but hesitant to make the switch because I currently make legacy wb capt money and it’s hard to stomach the real possibility of never getting back there. I also worry that airlines will choose younger guys over older career changers leaving a longer wait at the regional level. With that said I don’t know why at our ages it wouldn’t be possible to make it to the majors just that it might take longer. Or as some on here have mentioned getting stuck on the back of the hiring wave leaving you commuting to reserve if actually hired at said Major. Sorry not trying to be pessimistic just shedding light on what’s kept me from making the jump, even though it’s something I think about every day.

I think anyone in your position would be insane to give that up.

The advice I would give career changers is that if you make less than 70K a year and have a terrible schedule then go for it.

If you’re already making a ton of money and/or have a great schedule why would you voluntarily set yourself up to lose so much?

I wouldn’t give up that job. At your age given the number of new hires at the legacies and the number that will be hired while you build time, you likely never will be a wide body CA.

At the end of the day, it is a job, the idea is to earn money. You’ll loose millions of dollars by switching. A better plan is to continue flying for fun and when you retire from your sales job with a solid retirement nest egg, make the jump to a corporate or 121 then.

DanMarino I could see the hesitation given your situation. Last year I made well over $100K. This year I was given a new territory with a higher quota and my prospects look a bit grim. The best way for me to improve my position is to go field sales (currently inside sales). I figure if I’m going to be on a plane that much I’d rather be the one flying it. For me it’s less about the money and more about happiness. I know a job is a job is a job. But I’m convinced some are better than others.

Totally different story. Dan Marino is making $350k+ per year. That’s a lot of money on the table especially considering the time value of money. Sub $200k, I’d say consider it, sub $150k, yeah go for it.

I agree. I wasn’t suggesting he should go for it, in fact if I was in his shoes I wouldn’t even consider it. My current trajectory could get me to that same place, but not for a few more years. My point essentially was that given that I’m more or less at a crossroads I think I would prefer to pursue flying.

Yes, you should go for it. Be smart about it, and make a transition with very little down time not earning money, if you can.

I'm jaded too. But this time it will take a big economic catastrophe to change the calculus (not ruling that out).

No guarantees, but IMO better odds than in the past. For a job that pays $300k+ with 16+ days off.

Im doing the career transition thing at 39. I made more than a wide body captain in a past life. My reasons were more QOL based than financially motivated.

As you get more senior in aviation your schedule gets better and life in general gets better. As you get more senior in corporate America, it's all politics beyond middle management and hours get worse. Politics gets vicious and you have to decide if you're going to gut it out or start your own firm.

I'd rather do something fun until retirement with travel benefits. Corporate America, including sales, keeps around the lowest bidder for every role. I just got tired of having to constantly price and re-price yourself.

If you're going to do it, get your ppl and ir on the weekends at a mom and pop with a dpe. If you luck out your instructor might be a retired airline guy or military pilot. While you're getting your ratings decide if it's really for you or not. See if your company will let you drop to part time or build a side hustle. Im still in flight training but I made almost as much as I did in a corporate job with my side hustle. Next year who knows, but at least I don't wake up with a string of 4 letter words every morning!

You’ll be done with your ratings at 35
You’ll have 1500 hrs at 37
You’ll be Capt at a Regional by 39
Flow to a Major by 45-47
Upgrade narrow body at 52-55
Retire Capt narrow body or FO wide body long haul.
Bar any major economic events.

To be fair the last few years have been blown out and I don’t see anything above $275 for the years to come. But, I see your point.

On the flip side, I’ve been able to save a bunch for the lean years and have yet to fall into the trap of spending more the more you make.

While GA flying is entertaining for me I can’t help but think flying big jets will be more of a passion. Sounds crazy but I guess I don’t know what I don’t know. Even on the best days of my current job I still think about flying for a living. Something that’s just been with me for a young age.

And barring a medical problem, failure on a few checkrides, plus those pesky black swans that seem to strike without warning.

In my career, I’ve had two energy crunches, a couple of wars, deregulation, the wipe out of the F/Es, some strikes. Not predicting anything, but everyone of those were totally discounted 40 years ago

I’m with you man. That kind of money would be extremely hard to walk away from though. I’ve decided I’m going to commit to it, and take the plunge. It’s easier for me to stomach though since My best year yet was only about $140K and this year I’m looking at maybe $60K conservatively. Of course there’s always a chance for a bluebird account to come in but even still with the comp plan I got this year it’s highly unlikely that I’ll reach $100K again without moving to the field.

A common myth that flying “big jets” is more”fun” or “passion”; it’s called work for a reason. Fun flying is acro, fighters (not on a war), float planes, etc. Any jet is flown in accordance with strict standards, by the numbers, is watched thru FOQA programs and is regulated by Uncle Sam to the point you can’t start up without a government employee giving you permission.

The people, the trips depending on the people, the travel can be fun; watching an autopilot fly they the dark is work.

I would venture that the opposite, more so, is true. There are days that I’m sitting in the :45 taxi line wishing I could be in shorts/t-shirt in a 172.

My best trips are with folks who have a background outside of aviation - or at least a varied aviation background - not purely all 121. It gives some perspective and makes the “difficult” times seem a bit less difficult.

I wouldn’t count on finding passion in this industry, though. While I do enjoy my job for what it is and what it does and can provide - $ vs work/life balance - I would say not much passion is involved. The hope is that eventually you have a schedule and $$ (some already have $ from elsewhere) to follow passions outside of work - which is unquestionably what it will become.

I personally enjoy jets more (still like GA plenty). Speed, power, complexity, teamwork, the orchestration of it all.

That's when things are going smoothly on a nice day (or night). And when I don't have to do too many legs.

Otherwise it's called work for a reason...

There’s an old story about the Cessna pilot who looked up at and envied the fighter pilot, who envied the test pilot, who envied the airline pilot, who looked down and envied the Cessna pilot. ;)

While I see your point I’d still rather watch the autopilot fly in the dark than spend another 9-12 hour day staring at spreadsheets, making cold calls, and sitting through pointless meetings. I know that it becomes pretty mundane no matter what line of “work” you choose, but at least flying comes with a view.

Your point of view is realistic, Been there, done that and I prefer redeyes too.

I found it!


One fine hot Summer’s afternoon saw a Cessna 150 flying circuits at a quiet country airfield. The Instructor was getting quite bothered with the student’s inability to hold circuit height in the thermals and was getting impatient at sometimes having to take over the controls. Just then he saw a twin engine Cessna 5,000ft above him and thought "Another 1,000 hrs of this and I qualify for that twin charter job! Aaahh.. to be a real pilot.. going somewhere!"

The Cessna 402 was already late and the boss told him this charter was for one of the Company’s premier clients. He’d already set MCT and the cylinders didn’t like it in the heat of this Summer’s day. He was at 6,000ft and the winds were now a 20kt headwind. Today was the 6th day straight and he was pretty damn tired. Maybe if he got 10,000ft out of them the wind might die off... geez those cylinder temps! He looked out momentarily and saw a B737 leaving a contrail at 33,000ft in the serene blue sky. "Oh man" he thought, "My interview is next month. I hope I just don’t blow it! Outa G/A, nice jet job, above the weather... no snotty passengers to wait for.. aahhh."

The Boeing 737 bucked and weaved in the heavy CAT at FL330 and ATC advised that lower levels were not available due traffic. The Captain, who was only recently advised that his destination was below RVR minimums had slowed to LRC to try and hold off a possible inflight diversion, and arrange an ETA that would helpfully ensure the fog had lifted to CATII minima. The Company negotiations broke down yesterday and looked as if everyone was going to take a damn pay cut. The F/O’s will be particularly hard hit as their pay wasn’t anything to speak of anyway. Finally deciding on a speed compromise between LRC and turbulence penetration, the Captain looked up and saw Concorde at Mach 2+. Tapping his F/O’s shoulder as the 737 took another bashing, he said "Now THAT’S what we should be on... huge pay packet... super fast... not too many routes... not too many sectors... above the CAT... yep! What a life...!"

FL590 was not what he wanted anyway and considered FL570. Already the TAT was creeping up again and either they would have to descend or slow down. That damn rear fuel transfer pump was becoming unreliable and the F/E had said moments ago that the radiation meter was not reading numbers that he’d like to see. Concorde descended to FL570 but the radiation was still quite high even though the Notam indicated hunky dory below FL610. Fuel flow was up and the transfer pump was intermittent. Evening turned into night as they passed over the Atlantic. Looking up, the F/O could see a tiny white dot moving against the backdrop of a myriad of stars. "Hey Captain" he called as he pointed. "Must be the Shuttle. "The Captain looked for a moment and agreed. Quietly he thought how a Shuttle mission, whilst complicated, must be the be all and end all in aviation. Above the crap, no radiation problems, no damn fuel transfer problems... aaah. Must be a great way to earn a quid."

Discovery was into its 27th orbit and perigee was 200ft out from nominated rendezvous altitude with the commsat. The robot arm was virtually U/S and a walk may become necessary. The 200ft predicted error would necessitate a corrective burn and Discovery needed that fuel if a walk was to be required. Houston continually asked what the Commander wanted to do but the advice they proffered wasn’t much help. The Commander had already been 12 hours on station sorting out the problem and just wanted 10 bloody minutes to himself to take a leak. Just then a mission specialist, who had tilted the telescope down to the surface for a minute or two, called the Commander to the scope. "Have a look at this Sir, isn’t this the kinda flying you said you wanted to do after you finish up with NASA?" The Commander peered through the telescope and cried "Ooooohhhhh yeah! Now THAT’S flying! Man, that’s what its all about! Geez I’d give my left nut just to be doing THAT down there!" What the Discovery Commander was looking at was a Cessna 150 flying circuits at a quiet country airfield on a nice bright sunny afternoon.

A lot of times it's the lack of job satisfaction. I've been working in a pediatric intensive care unit for almost 10 years making well over 70k a year and only work 3 12 hour shifts. I've always loved my job but I hit a wall, I just don't want to do it anymore. I work with screaming kids and sleep deprived/stressed parents all day. I listen to monitor and ventilator alarms, all alarms going off all day. I can tell you that being able to sit down, shut the door, sit inside a dark cockpit staring at the controls and flying a plane sounds fantastic to me. I'll give up my pay to do just that because I can't take what I'm doing until I'm 65.

Just as an update to this thread I did finish my instrument rating last month. I’ll say it was certainly interesting starting my flight training back up just as a global pandemic was beginning to unfold, and the airline industry was (temporarily) crumbling under the pressure imposed by said pandemic. Life is just like that sometimes I guess. I’m still debating whether or not to continue with commercial. I’m curious though, is it enough to get simply commercial and multi engine before ATP if your goal is the airlines? Or should I also be anticipating to go after CFI, CFII, MEI? Also is it better to go part 61, or 141? What’s more affordable?

You have time now. So I’d recommend slow and cheap (part 61) instead of fast and expensive (part 141) You’re gonna have to do so much more to market yourself to an airline who’s up to their elbows in applicants with airline experience nowadays so I’d say prepare to instruct for a while.

Start reading/studying for your CFI as soon as you’re finished with your IR.
All materials can be downloaded for free from the FAA website. Start watching videos online.
Keep in mind there is about as much junk as there is useful stuff on YouTube.
Start immersing yourself in aviation.
Read and watch everything you can including on TV. That part is all free.
Find yourself a training buddy and work together.
Timebuild, study together.
At around 160-170 hrs start teaching each other all the PPL maneuvers.
Find a school or experienced CFI that is willing to combine your Commercial with your CFI.
Start at around 200 hrs TT.
Continue to practice with your training buddy in between instructional flights.
You’ll save yourself 20-30 hrs of dual this way.
As far as Part 141, a lot of people don’t realize that the syllabus and the aircraft need to be approved. Which means under part 141 you have to fly ALL hours in the syllabus on an airplane that is on the 141 certificate.
So if you are enrolled in a CPL 141 course any outside flying will NOT count towards your training hours or completion of your course.

That is what I was leaning towards as well.

Thanks for the advice. I think my instructor that I did my instrument with would be open to doubling up both commercial and CFI. That would certainly save me some money.

As long as you inform your DPE beforehand there is no formal CFAR that requires you to take a checkride from the left seat.
So you take your CPL SE ride a week or so before your initial CFI flying right seat.
Tell the DPE you’ll do your CFI next and if he or she minds you talk through the maneuvers as if it were your CFI ride.
Ask them after the ride if in their opinion you would have passed a CFI ride or not.
Take notes during the debrief and work on those items. If there are any.
I’ve personally done 5-6 combined CPL/CFI’s and they’re a lot of fun to do.
Needless to say you need to ace your CPL ride.
It’s intense make no mistake about it.

Yes, if you're going right into CFI, finish the CPL and ride prep in the right seat.

Forum etiquette has it you start your own thread with your own questions and not foul up somebody else’s.
Or shotgun over three sub forums.

I'm about to start this too.

Are you using the combined CPL/CFI syllabus from ASA2FLY?