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Should I expect a call from the top tier?

Old 01-05-2020, 08:16 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by TanktoEng View Post
Well shoot! I do have TWO within the last couple of years. Didn’t even think that would be out of the ordinary.
Originally Posted by PotatoChip View Post
I have had about seven total tickets. One was when I was 17 for exceeding 100mph. License was suspended for one month. It was a complete non-issue at JB. They asked me if I had anything I'd like to disclose, and although I had written them down, I reiterated that I had had them. When I brought them up, the CP asked, "Did you have like six in the last two years?" "No, more like six in my life." He laughed and said don't worry about.

Also, you're chasing PIC at the same umbrella... Are we talking TSA ---> GoJet??

Although considering some are out of business, I'm thinking more like Chataqua/Shuttle/Republic?
For *most* airlines, non-DUI/non-reckless moving violations in your youth are typically not a big deal provided:

1. You were young (under 25)
2. A lot of time has passed (ten years?)
3. You haven't gotten any recently.


A few random tickets here and there is not a real show stopper, but if you had a lot back in the day you MUST not get any more ever until you're at your career-destination airline. And sure they're not going to furlough you.

Somebody who looks like a reckless punk on paper at age 19 but is STILL getting regular tickets at age 35 is going to have real trouble with many majors, especially the best ones.
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Old 01-05-2020, 12:19 PM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by PotatoChip View Post
I have had about seven total tickets. One was when I was 17 for exceeding 100mph. License was suspended for one month. It was a complete non-issue at JB. They asked me if I had anything I'd like to disclose, and although I had written them down, I reiterated that I had had them. When I brought them up, the CP asked, "Did you have like six in the last two years?" "No, more like six in my life." He laughed and said don't worry about.

Also, you're chasing PIC at the same umbrella... Are we talking TSA ---> GoJet??

Although considering some are out of business, I'm thinking more like Chataqua/Shuttle/Republic?
Glad to hear that, still 18 and doing survey but like most pilots majors are the goal and I've had 3 tickets in the last 2 years. I haven't gotten any all this year though! Lol but I plan to keep it that way.
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Old 01-06-2020, 11:59 AM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by TanktoEng View Post
I went through initial training 15 years ago. I failed my IR, MEIR, and CFI Pt. 61. Three busts! Everything since is squeaky clean.

Here I am in 2020, 5 pt 121 initals, upgrade, and 4 type ratings later. I've amassed 7000 hours of trouble free 121 hours and have regional, wide body pax and cargo experience. No more failed rides since my early years. I've gotten a couple of fix it emails from DL but otherwise not a peep.

My question is this: Am I simply not marketable at the legacy/SWA/FDX level due to the pt. 61 failures? Should I change my aim to the LCC's and be at peace with my station in life?

Thank you!

Southwest is a LCC ... but 3 primary training failures shouldn’t stop you from going anywhere you want . But you could potentially be leaving a lot of money on the table, by holding out for a specific airline to call . Plenty of money to be made at non legacy and Fedex and UPS.
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Old 01-06-2020, 02:51 PM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by hc0fitted View Post
Southwest is a LCC ... but 3 primary training failures shouldn’t stop you from going anywhere you want .
Actually that does not seem to be correct. 1-2 busts is not catastrophic, especially if they were early GA/CFI ratings.

But 3+ is where picky airlines (ie big six) start getting very gun-shy. It's possible but likely an uphill battle. I'm not sure if even AA WO's will accept three busts.

Two issues...

1. Can you pass training and be a good pilot. It's possible to satisfy them on this one with a lengthy success record after your busts.

2. How will it look after an accident when the media and ambulance chasers dig up that history. All of us in aviation know that three busts (especially early in your career) can be insignificant but the public doesn't and the public buys tickets and sits on juries. To the public three busts is about the same as three DUI's. While operating a plane. The airlines which can be picky are stacking the deck with clean training records, not because it's vital but because they can, and it might save them public notoriety later.

Issue #2 is in large part knee-jerk due to Renslow. And of course you can never ever make the history go away.
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Old 01-07-2020, 05:50 AM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
2. How will it look after an accident when the media and ambulance chasers dig up that history. All of us in aviation know that three busts (especially early in your career) can be insignificant but the public doesn't and the public buys tickets and sits on juries. To the public three busts is about the same as three DUI's. While operating a plane. The airlines which can be picky are stacking the deck with clean training records, not because it's vital but because they can, and it might save them public notoriety later.

Issue #2 is in large part knee-jerk due to Renslow. And of course you can never ever make the history go away.
Rick, you and several others have been touting this narrative on these forums for a long while now. I have two questions for you.

1. Do you believe with all your intellect that a pilot with 3+ busts, especially if they occurred early in their career/primary training, is automatically beyond redemption? Even irregardless of subsequent years of clean 121 flying, gaining of accolades like Chief Pilot/LCA/Management credentials, multiple successful type ratings, acquiring company/FAA/NTSB awards, leadership positions, and overall chasing excellence? Are they forever seen as PR liabilities in the eyes of the Big Six?

2. Are you in a hiring position at your legacy?
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Old 01-07-2020, 07:19 AM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by Glenn Would View Post
1. Do you believe with all your intellect that a pilot with 3+ busts, especially if they occurred early in their career/primary training, is automatically beyond redemption? Even irregardless of subsequent years of clean 121 flying, gaining of accolades like Chief Pilot/LCA/Management credentials, multiple successful type ratings, acquiring company/FAA/NTSB awards, leadership positions, and overall chasing excellence? Are they forever seen as PR liabilities in the eyes of the Big Six?
My gut feel is that four busts is consistently beyond redemption for most or all of the big six. My gut feel is that two can usually be overcome under the right circumstances. Three is somewhere in the middle (gut feel).

Very aggressive pursuit of your goals shifts the odds towards your favor, but there are some folks out there who never get calls, even with clean records (that might change soon). I think that the standout points on your resume are at least as important as the blackmarks. Your average boring white male pilot can easily get lost in the traffic. If you have unusual positives which get their attention then they might be able to overlook/over-ride some black marks.

I do believe that the colgan accident made everyone (even regionals) sensitive to the potential PR impact of one's training history. The recent atlas crash is just going to re-inforce that unfortunately... if you were looking for a bad-pilot poster-child to replace CA Renslow, central casting couldn't have come up with a better candidate than Aska. And when the current crop of regional noobs (which includes some barrel-scrappings) upgrades en-masse we might even see a repeat of colgan. A couple years ago I was frankly alarmed, but I think at least some regionals have wised up and tightened up on hiring/training.

Originally Posted by Glenn Would View Post
2. Are you in a hiring position at your legacy?
No, I've been involved in hiring at previous levels. I work with a lot of senior folks in the reserves, they and I have tried to help a lot of transitioning junior officers over the years get into the majors. A couple of my buddies are or were involved in legacy hiring. And all of us have landed legacy or second-tier major jobs ourselves.

Also have a lot of civilian friends who have progressed (and a few who haven't), so I have some perspective there too (I have helped some civilians get hired too).

Last edited by rickair7777; 01-07-2020 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 01-07-2020, 07:33 AM
  #17  
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Rick....what's the deal with people not getting calls with clean records?

ONLY two things I can think of are 1) No degree, and 2) Many many years since they've had a new type or upgrade.

Furthermore, I'd have to guess that said people are casting a narrow net at only the big 3/6 instead of taking offers from places like JB, Sprit, Frontier, etc.
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Old 01-07-2020, 07:36 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by Bahamasflyer View Post
And people wonder why I completely lay off the booze, eat healthy, and go to bed early for a few weeks leading up to a jeopardy event!
That's what I do. Except the booze part.
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Old 01-07-2020, 07:41 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by Bahamasflyer View Post
Rick....what's the deal with people not getting calls with clean records?

ONLY two things I can think of are 1) No degree, and 2) Many many years since they've had a new type or upgrade.
If you're talking top-tier, then no degree is almost a certain show stopper... like 1% odds of success and that only with some extensive aviation credentials.

No recent type training event (apparently 3-5 years) is also supposedly a show stopper for some majors, and big factor for others. Some folks truly do struggle if they are far removed from schoolhouse... a great pilot (in his airplane) can truly suck for a long time in a new type.
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Old 01-07-2020, 08:04 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Actually that does not seem to be correct. 1-2 busts is not catastrophic, especially if they were early GA/CFI ratings.

But 3+ is where picky airlines (ie big six) start getting very gun-shy.
Do you include stage checks as part of that number, or just check ride for a rating, type, etc?
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