Air Guitar

That's very good news. It's great to know it worked out.

JamesNoBrakes

The thing I most commonly found lacking with that maneuver was structure. How to fly it, how to know if you are low, how to know if you are high, how to deal with both situations. Structure, coupled with understanding what the objective is, which is a spot/accuracy landing. Almost always, I found it was taught to go "to maximum glide speed", which if you have plenty of room is a bad idea, since maximizing the glide in the opposite direction and then making a U-turn forces you to maximize glide in the other direction, where the slightest change means you now won't make it all the way back. You go max glide if you have to, but not just automatically IME, because again, the idea is an accuracy landing, not a max glide. But apart from that, the structure aspect as far as how to fly, what altitudes to be at and where, how to get to those, how to evaluate your performance based on some of these things while it is happening, how to compensate for wind, how much to compensate for how many knots of wind, etc., was almost always lacking. Too often this was relying on guessing, which some instructors labeled as "judgement", but with no structure, this "just feel it" seat-of-the-pants instruction failed far more than it ever worked. With very little airplane experience, some sort of baseline has to be used (again, IME and IMO) with students to form some kind of foundation for their decisions.

Unfortunately, this maneuver has gotten a pretty bad reputation IMO, mainly due to this lack of structure when teaching it. That leads to very little confidence on the student's part and relying on "luck" and "hope" for it to work out. Anyway, when you get to be the instructor, you get the opportunity to change this!

rickair7777

Always wondered about structure/gates, I didn't have to do this when I was a student or CFI but I've done the sully-style double engine fail in the sim multiple times and it's tough without known performance gates, which would be even harder in an airliner in the real world with widely variable TOGW.

LongRoadAhead

⬆️ This x1000

I could go out right now and attempt 10 PO 180s. 5 would be spot on the other 5 would be slightly short or slightly long. And that would be in a no wind/ light wind scenario. I still have a very hard time judging my height on base. Often times when practicing I would turn early and land 500ft. or so long of my point(most often the 1,000 footers). I think for me it's mostly psychological. I know that while landing 500ft.long on say a 5,000ft. runway is a bust by ACS standards in real life I would be OK with that as opposed to say landing short. I know the maneuver is really about energy management which I guess is just something I need to get better at.

TiredSoul

Common CFI error, only teaching what the scripted lesson calls for as “everything else has been covered”.
Power off 180 should be taught during Private and practiced since then.
Power off 180/90/360, anything power off should be taught during PPL then practiced.
ATC at my home airport loves to give you a short approach when it’s busy.
Thats a PO180 right there.
Practice PO180 during Instrument training when you circle to land.
It’s not a Commercial ONLY maneuver.
The level of execution is yes, not the act itself.

DanMarino

Your tower is cool with performing that as a short approach with traffic closing in?

TiredSoul

1. Is there an official FAA or ATC definition of a short approach? Otherwise anything less then turning base at 45 degrees is a short(er) approach.
2. You can practice power off 180’s to a designated point like a runway marker or taxi way and practice the same techniques as with the PTS/ACS.
3. Home airport and most within a 50 mile radius has runways of at least 5000’ so I would frequently practice with students that the runway was only 3000’ or 2000’ or “from here to there” or there was a made up notam of an obstacle on final or of the first 2000’ not available for landing etc etc etc.
Just to get them to practice techniques with a different sight picture.
You’re an instructor not a regurgitator.

QRH Bingo

I instructed at a busy/congested Class Charlie airport and not only would they allow you to do so if asked (space allowing, of course) but there were times when ATC requested you to do so for timing/separation.

DanMarino

They requested that you perform a simulated engine out maneuver?

DanMarino

definitely makes sense to pick a spot down the runway and simulate a shorter field. I just see the po 180 performed slowly and seems like it while it would save distance in the pattern maybe not necessarily time. But everyone has their own way of doing things.