hifiaudio177

Hi folks,
First time poster, so much info and so many acronyms to learn . I'd like to get some advice from all the pros for my 17 year old who is just starting this journey. We (he and I) have just begun to train for our PPL (at a local part 61) and he has plans to attend a large college here in TN with a great flight program to get the restricted ATP. His goal would be to advance to a major as fast as possible, without worrying too much about where he needs to live prior to that. Obviously from MY perspective, having him as close to TN as possible would be great, but if living somewhere else gets him there faster, so be it. He also plans to be a part of one of the major's flight programs, like Delta's Propel or SWA D255.

Any commentary from the group here on what that journey is likely to REALLY look like after he graduates? Let's say he is accepted to Propel and it was today... where would he likely go to start his career ( a regional I guess?) , and for how long. What can he do to get to the "top of the list" faster and into a seat at a major?

Anything else he should be doing right now or over the new few years outside of just acing his college classes and getting as much time as possible in the air?

Thanks!!

rickair7777

1. Affiliation programs. Don't rely on those. May as well participate if convenient since they may provide some benefits and in some cases have gotten people called sooner than they would have otherwise. But don't plan training or career progression based on such programs, do what works for you first and only then participate as able.


2. Conventional wisdom has been pay-as-you-go (or parents pay if they can) rather than encumbering the student with large loans. Unpredictable industry circumstances have in the past left many stuck at a regional, even as an FO, with large loan payments. That results in years of ramen, or in many cases people drop out of aviation to get a real job so they can pay off their loans. However... at this exact moment in time there is a good case to be made to expedite your career progression so as to get a major seniority number as early as possible in this hiring wave. There are so many retirements that even a recession or other event would probably only slow the hiring for a while. Covid was a speedbump for one year. You will never really make up seniority lost to people hired ahead of you, unless they're significantly older than you.

In this climate I think it's worth pulling out all stops, including loans to get to a major as fast as possible. Be prepared to be flexible and grab opportunities as they come.


3. Regionals. Traditional path has been regional FO => regional CA then hired at majors after a few years. There will be so many pilots pulled from the regionals this year alone that the old model will likely need to be adjusted. Hard to predict how that will play out, possibly use regionals as training grounds for new legacy pilots, with senior regional CA's granted legacy seniority and a lot of extra pay to stay and train the new folks. Either way, progression will be fast by historical standards.

Possible even likely that ULCC's will hire flight instructors (like the regionals do now) on a wholesale basis. ULCC's are not a bad gig, but for a someone in their early 20's there are rather VAST long-term opportunities at a legacy so I'd focus on that (or FDX/UPS).


4. Focus on flight experience, grades, and some leadership/extra-curricular whole-person activities. At the regional, get involved with the training dept or union (but not at the expense of a lot of flight time, ie don't take a full time ground or sim instructor job if your turbine time or TPIC is low).

Stay out of trouble, no DUI's or other legal entanglements. Keep a VERY VERY low profile on social media... you can never take that back once it's out there and legacies will revoke job offers after they screen your SM and find problematic activity. Don't get publicly involved in controversial politics, and most of it is controversial today.

If he gets to R-ATP eligibility before graduation and the regionals are hiring, it might be worth considering taking a regional gig immediately (and finish college online). I would not normally recommend that but we live in exceptional times. Ball players do that all the time, and a 40-year career at a legacy is at least financially equivalent to that of a low/mid rank professional baller.

At his age, he should NOT get married until he's established at his career-destination major. Wives and especially kids will very quickly drag down your career flexibility. Happened to me, I told the GF what the deal was, that we'd need to move around for a few years and she agreed sincerely. But after we got married she had some family circumstances (beyond her control) and really needed to be in one town and stable. That set me back about a decade as it turned out.



Also, FDX's main hub is at Memphis... they are one of the top employers, probably even THE top aviation employer in the world right now. Some FO's making $500k+, some CA's making $1M+.

hifiaudio177

Thank you so much for that detailed response. I have tried to tell him some of the same around girlfriends/ wives.. he needs to be able to be super flexible it sounds like to fast track the career. Thankfully he has very high ACT and great grades so college should be paid for.. hopefully an extra scholarship or two to help with flight lessons, but I will take care of whatever is left over, so he wont end up owing anything when he is done. He has never given a crap about social media so he can just continue to not have a profile on anything .

So you think it might be worth it to take a job immediately upon getting the R-ATP... interesting. So does a job there mean you start the clock on seniority at the associated major (I think I'm understanding that correctly?)

And very interesting on the Fedex pay scale.. I had no idea... but I guess I wouldn't get "parents fly the world for free" benefits with that


Probably too early for this question, but are there major pros and cons between the airlines? I see that Delta and Southwest score much higher on Glassdoor rankings....
I guess a con of SWA would be no overseas flying.

Oh and you said in this climate to pull out all the stops to accelerate this... would you suggest something other than a collegiate program?
Again, thanks so much for the detail.

rickair7777

No as of right now you don't get a major number when you start at a regional (although anything might be possible a couple years down the road).

But since you need TPIC, or at least a couple thousand hours of turbine SIC, to be competitive for a major job, the sooner you get on the escalator the better. Not saying he *should* bail on college early, but it might be worth considering. He would need a plan to finish via distance learning, and quickly too. But that could get you on at a major maybe 12-18 months sooner than you would have otherwise. If the traditional college experience is more important, by all means finish up, the major retirements will still be happening but they start to taper off after mid-decade.

The FDX guys I know just buy tickets when they want to travel, first or business.

Disregard ALL traditional rankings and metrics such as glassdoor regarding pilot careers. That's for rank-and-file employees. There are far too many nuances with regards to pilot union contracts, the only way to get the real scoop is by talking to people (pilots) in the industry. It's too early to worry about various majors for the most part, but if he ends up selecting a flow or maybe pathways program it might be worth considering the location of pilot domiciles. But even so, things change over time.

For example, a quick google of Delta Pilot Pay returns this: "Pilot pay at Delta Air Lines ranges from $66,853.80 per year for a new first officer up to $257,657.40 per year for a senior captain."

Wrong. First year is about $100K, second year closer to $200K, and senior CA's more like $600k+. A small few are over $1M right now.

Right now, I'd be shooting for big three and FDX/UPS. SWA has no widebodies and far fewer retirements this decade. A very young person will have the opportunity to spend decades flying widebodies, and that's a lot of money compared to narrowbodies. SWA, Alaska, and all LCC/ULCC fly only narrowbodies with little to no overseas (except HI and Latin America). They are all great jobs compared to the white collar grind, but for a very young person it would leave a lot of money on the table.

Be aggressive now because once you get locked into a seniority list, there's almost nothing you can do to alter your fate.

Go to college for sure, lack of a degree will probably slow your progress although the hard requirement has mostly gone away.

Might consider college while training at a local independent school. It would depend on circumstances, but that (combined with hustle) might allow one to get to 1500 hours sooner although college programs should have the lower R-ATP min of 1000 hours vice 1500. The downside to college programs is they often structure the flight training across four years, so it would be hard to hustle to finish up sooner. That 500 hour reduction in R-ATP mins is nice, but it would only take six months of full-time CFI work to build 500 hours. Probably worth investigating how much flexibility he'd have with the college program, or will it take four years regardless.

QRH Bingo

I have even seen some flow programs prohibit one from outright applying to that particular airline if already in their flow program. Effectively locking one into that regional for years longer than an off-the-street hire. Now this was several years ago and I do not have any current specific examples but, like everything else, always read the fine print.

TipTanks

You have to complete the degree to be eligible for the R-ATP. So this doesn't make a lot of sense.


Generally I find people over-value the R-ATP. The difference between 1000 hours and 1500 hours (500 hours) amounts to about 4-5 months if he's teaching at a busy flight school (and all of the flight schools will be busy). Is 4-5 months a big deal for seniority? Absolutely. But a UND/Riddle/etc training program is probably 2-3x the cost of what you can pay for training outside of the R-ATP cartel.

rickair7777

You're correct for a four-year. But you can typically request an associates and leave early out of a four-year program. So he could probably get the 1250 mins.

That is true, and if you hustle you can probably get to 1500 hours no later than a big aviation school would let you get to 1000 anyway.

TipTanks

100% agree. And didn't mention that aspect. You will absolutely get to 1500 hours in a non-university "commercial" flight school faster than you can get to 1000 hours at a university. I'm assuming that anyone who wanted to do this fast would go to a commercial flight school as soon as they graduated from their university.

There is a challenge out there in the world to be aware of: As more and more schools have airline partner programs, they are being somewhat protectionist about instructor hiring. So a lot of the big flight schools I am familiar with are adopting a "hire your own students only" strategy.

For example: You need about 4-6 students for every 1 instructor to get them to 1500 hours. (assumes you have ~300 hours at end of CFI school + and you're going to get ~200 hours dual for each of your students)

If I have a class of 20 "US JetwayWest Airlines" cadets that train at my school, I need 120 students just to get them to 1500 hours to fulfill my commitment to the airline. Then I will need 720 students to get those 120 to 1500 hours. You can see how the Ponzi scheme gets out of hand really quickly.

So, part of the looming shortage is not just Airline Pilots, it's flight school students. There's going to be a ton of CFI's out there on the street with no students to get them to 1500 hours.

rickair7777

At some point with all those CFI's and ASEL sitting idle, and the regionals desperate, the major partners will just sponsor them to to turn tons of 100LL into noise. That's a very quick fix and only costs money... don't need to acquire capital assets or commit to anything long term. They pay for your last 500-800 hours, and you work for their regional.

hifiaudio177

Thanks a ton for all of the advice. The expense of the college degree was mentioned, but in this case, college will likely be 100% paid for through academic scholarships, other than room and board (assuming he lives on campus), so its really the "flight lab" cost, which looks to be similar to flight training costs at any part 61 or 141 flight school (about $60K or so during college (?) - he will have his private by the end of this coming summer, before his high school senior year starts).

The main issue is just the time to complete the degree. I guess we are basically talking about 4 full years after high school, with perhaps a couple hundred hours on the backend, to be ready to sit in a regional carrier on the way to a major if he went the 4 year degree / pathway program at MTSU here in TN.

VS: ~2 total years after high school to be sitting in a regional seat if we just paid his way through a 141 school, or ATP equivalent?

I will ask the university if, and how, he can accelerate the training at all. Another thing to consider is the real value of a "professional pilot" degree in the real world. I assume basically nothing other than for jobs that just require "a degree". I thought it might be very interesting for him to get an aircraft maintenance minor or some sort if they allowed that. Could be useful professionally and personally.