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Hello,

I need some help about the requirements under 14 CFR 121.436(a)(3). Most of my experience is under ICAO regulations (3000+ SIC A320/B787). Now, checking 14 CFR 61.51(j)(2) seems I can log my ICAO experience (ICAO DAN 121) in my US Logbook. Now I do have a FAA ATPL license with type rating in PIC A320/B767, but just started flying in USA. Do i still need to do 1000 FAR 121 or those hours recognize by FAA under 61.51 could work to comply with the minimum requirements for an upgrade in USA?

Best regards,
Pilot KCL

You will require 1,000 hours working for a US certificate holder; your employment for foreign carriers, while notable, does not meet the 1,000 hour requirement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBurke (Post 3609698)

You will require 1,000 hours working for a US certificate holder; your employment for foreign carriers, while notable, does not meet the 1,000 hour requirement.

That is exactly what i thought, but reading the far 121.436 says:

(3) If serving as pilot in command in part 121 operations, has 1,000 hours as:

(i) Second in command in operations under this part;

Doesnt specify must be under US certificate holders, it just says 121 operations… which ICAO has. And ICAO is recognize and can be logged in the US logbook under far 61.51.

far 61.51 says: (j) Aircraft requirements for logging flight time (2) An aircraft of foreign registry with an airworthiness certificate that is approved by the aviation authority of a foreign country that is a Member State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation Organization.

So it gives me 2 options for logging time. Either US register aircrafts or foreigns under ICAO. And my ICAO experience is under ICAO DAN 121, which is recognized by FAA under that regulation.

May be it means nothing, but i really need to dig a little bit more about this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotKCL (Post 3609705)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotKCL (Post 3609705)

And ICAO is recognize and can be logged in the US logbook under far 61.51.

You can put whatever you want in your logbook, but unless what you put there was earned while flying for a US carrier, it won't count toward the 1,000 hours of experience. You can show up with 25,000 hours of foreign carrier experience, and it doesn't matter what the foreign carrier called themselves. You can log it, but it doesn't not take the place of the time required to be flown off working for a US carrier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilotKCL (Post 3609705)

So it gives me 2 options for logging time. Either US register aircrafts or foreigns under ICAO. And my ICAO experience is under ICAO DAN 121, which is recognized by FAA under that regulation.

May be it means nothing, but i really need to dig a little bit more about this.

Logging time is not the issue. The regulation is quite clear on the matter, as are FAA Chief Legal Counsel interpretations on the subject.

Logging the time is irrelevant. Again, put the time in your logbook that you've flown for carriers outside the US, but it won't get you one hour closer to the 1,000 hours you'll need under Title 14, Part 121, of the Code of Federal Regulations.

You really don't need to dig into it more; you can keep asking the question and keep suggesting ways you think will circumvent the regulation, and it won't change a thing. If you want to fly for a US carrier and upgrade, you'll need those thousand hours, and you'll need them working for a US carrier. Those thousand hours can be a combination of Fractional (91.1053), charter (135.243), or airline (121.436). Military credit is also possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBurke (Post 3609711)

Yes, it does state that it must be US certificate holders. You just quoted the language. "Under this part."

What you're reading is the Code of Federal Regulations. It's a regulation unique to the United States. "Under this part" means that the 1,000 hours must be earned under Title 14 of the United States Code of Federal Regulations. No foreign airline is certificated under 14 CFR 121.

Foreign airlines can call themselves 121, 12121 or whatever they like. But it doesn't make them certificated under Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations under the United States, and they don't hold an operating certificate from the United States Federal Aviation Administration. If you want your thousand hours, you'll need it working for a US carrier.

You can put whatever you want in your logbook, but unless what you put there was earned while flying for a US carrier, it won't count toward the 1,000 hours of experience. You can show up with 25,000 hours of foreign carrier experience, and it doesn't matter what the foreign carrier called themselves. You can log it, but it doesn't not take the place of the time required to be flown off working for a US carrier.

Logging time is not the issue. The regulation is quite clear on the matter, as are FAA Chief Legal Counsel interpretations on the subject.

Logging the time is irrelevant. Again, put the time in your logbook that you've flown for carriers outside the US, but it won't get you one hour closer to the 1,000 hours you'll need under Title 14, Part 121, of the Code of Federal Regulations.

You really don't need to dig into it more; you can keep asking the question and keep suggesting ways you think will circumvent the regulation, and it won't change a thing. If you want to fly for a US carrier and upgrade, you'll need those thousand hours, and you'll need them working for a US carrier. Those thousand hours can be a combination of Fractional (91.1053), charter (135.243), or airline (121.436). Military credit is also possible.

Thanks for the longer explanation. Yep, most of my time was on CFR part 129 and it wont work. I thought the logbook matter. Well, patience and keep flying.

There are three means of understanding the regulation and one additional means of viewing how it has been applied in the past. In order of significance; the first method is to review the preambles to the Federal Register, where the regulation (or changes to it) were published. These preambles include an explanation as to the reasons for the regulation and how it was crafted. The second source after the Federal Register preambles are the FAA Chief Legal Counsel letters of interpretation. The authority for the regulation and it's application and interpretation rests with the FAA Administrator, and the Administrator authorizes (delegates) the Chief and regional legal counsel to issue interpretations of the regulation. These are searchable online. The final method is reading the regulation itself.

A fourth method is to review cases adjudicated by administrative law judges, rendering the specific application in a specific case, but those do not set precedent, nor do they interpret the regulation. They simply provide some insight into how it was applied in a specific case.

An example of a Chief Legal Counsel interpretation applicable to your case is Durden, 2014. It answers the question regarding what is meant by "operations under this part," among other things, as it relates to the 1000 hour requirement of 14 CFR 121.436:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretation.pdf

Chief Legal Counsel interpretations (search): https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...interpretation.

Federal Register (search): https://www.federalregister.gov

Title 14, Code of Federal REgulations (search): https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14

KCL,

See it this way, it requires 1.5-2 years experience in the style of operations.
Your total experience is only partially relevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peabody17 (Post 3609798)

Actually, “under this part” refers to Part 121. Here is the breakdown:

The original poster's confusion came from the ICAO reference to 121, vs. 14 CFR 121.

Both are "Part 121."

His confusion also stemmed from whether "under this part" referred strictly to 14 CFR 121, or whether other parts of the CFR were included; notably, 61.51, which covers the logging of time.

To re-emphasize what others have already said, yes you will need 1000 hours flying for one of the US certified (or US military) operations listed in the reg.

This is a well-worn path, and while you can read some grey area into the regs if you want to find it badly enough the FAA has long ago clarified the intent of and application of the regulation. That is definitive.