Uncharacterized Military Discharge
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2022
Posts: 856
But there is a DSM diagnosis for "doesn't adapt well to military life" ... and that's adjustment disorder.
#12
Nor is it intended to be, because that might obligate the DoD to provide ongoing care (via AD retention, med retirement, or VA). At the recruit level they prefer to assume that you arrived broken, and they just want to send you back home in the same condition. They don't want to pay 70+ years of med retirement or VA for someone who only lasted a few weeks of boot camp. Otherwise anyone who could fake it real good for a few weeks could retire for life at age 18 1/2.
If they actually break you, obvious serious physical injury, they will take care of you.
That is an example of an adjustment disorder, not a specific disorder. Treatment often involves removing the stressor, simply give it time in many cases, or change your life circumstances if possible.
Actual diagnosis of Adjustment Disorder in mil medicine became a common thing after congress put some limits on discharges... a work-around basically:
https://nlgmltf.org/military-law/201...der-discharge/
If they actually break you, obvious serious physical injury, they will take care of you.
Actual diagnosis of Adjustment Disorder in mil medicine became a common thing after congress put some limits on discharges... a work-around basically:
https://nlgmltf.org/military-law/201...der-discharge/
#13
For the OP: After some thought, I'd suggest that you pay AMAS for consulting as to how you should fill out the FAA medical application (form 8500). I don't know and nobody here can determine for certain whether you need to check box #18(s). I suspect you do, but don't know for sure. If there was no medical diagnosis, then perhaps your discharge was administrative, not medical in nature. Get professional advice, there are ramifications for getting wrong either way.
#14
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2023
Posts: 3
Thanks everybody for the help, I think this is going to go pretty smoothly so long as I can front the money for the evaluations that are necessary.
There's a lot I want to reply to here, so I figured I'd do it all in one giant reply.
Yes, I absolutely understand that this is not going to be a walk in the park, at the very least for the training portion. I'm prepared to deal with the stress of it now. Back then I was not. It was a really rough period of time. Fortunately, since going to University and getting my life straightened out, my circumstances have gotten much better for me.
Yes, I do plan on explaining myself and I also think an interview coach would be a great idea. My ideal final destination would be Delta. Is that a possibility? I'm trying my best to ask around and see what other people's experiences are, but unfortunately mental health is so stigmatized in this industry, nobody wants to talk about it, so it seems pretty hard to get a straight answer out of anybody.
I'm hoping that I'll be able to contact the HR departments at some bigger airlines and ask them what the company's official stance is when they encounter this sort of thing.
That's heartening to hear. I also have to hope & believe that the bigger airlines are also understanding...
I definitely did learn an important life lesson: when things don't feel right in your head, make sure you tell someone. Rather than let it get worse and continue to fly, you'd better ground yourself or seek help before things get worse.
Unfortunately I did report myself as having one suicidal ideation when I went to the medical ward. So with the HIMS AME I am going to have to get a psych test, and maybe a cognitive test, and maybe be in a Special Issuance sort of situation. I never had any medication, I never received therapy, I never had any sort of treatment, and this has never happened before or after this one moment. I was diagnosed with Adjustment Disorder & that's it. The HIMS AMEs I have spoken with seem to all agree that I will be able to get the first class sorted out. The real question is just whether or not the airlines will like me. Thanks for the help rickair7777!
Yep, it was just an Uncharacterized Discharge. I wasn't in the military long enough for them to make a clear distinction as to whether or not I acted honorably.
Do you mean the next cycle of hiring ups and downs? I see every airline currently hiring on https://www.airlinepilotcareers.com/major-airlines, so at present moment, that seems like a good sign...
I was never REJECTED, as in, I was able to get INTO the military. But I'll speak with the HIMS AME and AMAS to get it just right.
Thanks for the tips, I'll follow that advice!
Loser or not , I just want to know if the big airlines will consider hiring me.
I'm definitely going to talk to AMAS, thank you for the advice!
There's a lot I want to reply to here, so I figured I'd do it all in one giant reply.
Historically a failure to adjust to military life would be disqualifer for top tier airlines, and a potential stumbling block for others. Airline life isn't boot camp, but it's pretty structured, and occasionally you have to work at all hours potentially under stress.
But times (and labor laws) have changed. In some states they may not even be able to ask for DD214 copy 4, although even copy 1 would show a very short period of service, indicating that you were released from initial training. Since they're going to see that anyway, and when you report military service history on the application, might as well plan on being honest and explaining it.
I'm hoping that I'll be able to contact the HR departments at some bigger airlines and ask them what the company's official stance is when they encounter this sort of thing.
I'd say you also have a good shot at top tier airlines, this is simply something you can explain. It will be important IMO that you convey a lesson-learned. From my perspective as a senior mil officer, a recruit in your situation should have been released on compassionate grounds before the situation got bad. I suspect today that they would maintain better SA on recruits, and any outside stressors they may have. So the lesson-learned might have been to proactively ask for help from proper channels if outside factors interfere with work... this is actually important for airlines, since they do not want stressed out, distracted pilots flying their planes. That's a well known safety hazard.
I think as long as you can convey a lesson learned, any rational person will understand the situation... at that age, in boot camp, you simply didn't know to ask for help (but you do now).
I think as long as you can convey a lesson learned, any rational person will understand the situation... at that age, in boot camp, you simply didn't know to ask for help (but you do now).
Worst case, second-tier airlines are still a good life, better than 95% of office jobs IMO.
But one more thing... if there were any mental health issues diagnosed or "suicidal ideations" actually DOCUMENTED in any mil records (medical or admin) you are going to have to address this with the FAA to get a medical. Do not lie about that sort of thing on an FAA medical application, that's go-to-federal-prison stuff and they enforce it occasionally. Even in that case, I think you can still get a medical with a brief, one-time, situation-induced period of depression.
But one more thing... if there were any mental health issues diagnosed or "suicidal ideations" actually DOCUMENTED in any mil records (medical or admin) you are going to have to address this with the FAA to get a medical. Do not lie about that sort of thing on an FAA medical application, that's go-to-federal-prison stuff and they enforce it occasionally. Even in that case, I think you can still get a medical with a brief, one-time, situation-induced period of depression.
The trick will be any associated psych diagnosis or medications, and clearing those hurdles with the FAA for a class 1 medical. While I have not seen this specific discharge on an application the Wholly Owned regionals have taken multiple people with not Honorable Discharges. When I asked my peers in recruiting about it they said as long as it wasn’t an OTH or Dishonorable discharge, it wasn’t a big deal.
Come on guys. 18 year old with a dying parent gets sent home after a few weeks in boot camp not having done anything awful ... yeah, you can come back from that. No it doesn't mean your a LOSER. Lotta people do a lot of growing up between 18 and ... oh how about 23 before which the FAA won't even give you an ATP. There's presumably a reason for that.
For the OP: After some thought, I'd suggest that you pay AMAS for consulting as to how you should fill out the FAA medical application (form 8500). I don't know and nobody here can determine for certain whether you need to check box #18(s). I suspect you do, but don't know for sure. If there was no medical diagnosis, then perhaps your discharge was administrative, not medical in nature. Get professional advice, there are ramifications for getting wrong either way.
#15
Yes, I absolutely understand that this is not going to be a walk in the park, at the very least for the training portion. I'm prepared to deal with the stress of it now. Back then I was not. It was a really rough period of time. Fortunately, since going to University and getting my life straightened out, my circumstances have gotten much better for me.
They might be able to reject you based on the mil discharge, but if you explain that as medical-related (now resolved) it might actually protect you. I'd ask an interview consultant.
Unfortunately I did report myself as having one suicidal ideation when I went to the medical ward. So with the HIMS AME I am going to have to get a psych test, and maybe a cognitive test, and maybe be in a Special Issuance sort of situation. I never had any medication, I never received therapy, I never had any sort of treatment, and this has never happened before or after this one moment. I was diagnosed with Adjustment Disorder & that's it. The HIMS AMEs I have spoken with seem to all agree that I will be able to get the first class sorted out. The real question is just whether or not the airlines will like me.
Since the reason for discharge was medical (mental health) it's possible that the airlines won't be able to ask about those details at an interview. If they do, keep it short, mention what you learned and then shut up. I'd ask your interview prep person about how to deal with that. Kind of tricky since they can ask about military service and history, but not about medical stuff, and your situation is both.
But I think you'll be fine... you might get rejected by an airline or two, but I'm sure you'll get other offers. Even people with no background issues at all get rejected by airlines all the time, and many have no idea why. Again don't get your heart set on one airline, but rather shoot for a group (and have a fallback plan).
Yeah, get professional advice on that... the language on FAA forms (and regulations) means EXACTLY whatever the FAA wants it to mean. Just because you read it a certain way is irrelevant.
#16
Nor is it intended to be, because that might obligate the DoD to provide ongoing care (via AD retention, med retirement, or VA). At the recruit level they prefer to assume that you arrived broken, and they just want to send you back home in the same condition. They don't want to pay 70+ years of med retirement or VA for someone who only lasted a few weeks of boot camp. Otherwise anyone who could fake it real good for a few weeks could retire for life at age 18 1/2.
#17
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2023
Posts: 3
You probably won't get much response. Legally if you have an FAA 1C medical, they mostly cannot reject you for medical issues, including mental health. That was not true in the past, and old-timers might tell you the complete opposite. But times have changed.
...
They might be able to reject you based on the mil discharge, but if you explain that as medical-related (now resolved) it might actually protect you. I'd ask an interview consultant.
...
Since the reason for discharge was medical (mental health) it's possible that the airlines won't be able to ask about those details at an interview. If they do, keep it short, mention what you learned and then shut up. I'd ask your interview prep person about how to deal with that. Kind of tricky since they can ask about military service and history, but not about medical stuff, and your situation is both.
...
They might be able to reject you based on the mil discharge, but if you explain that as medical-related (now resolved) it might actually protect you. I'd ask an interview consultant.
...
Since the reason for discharge was medical (mental health) it's possible that the airlines won't be able to ask about those details at an interview. If they do, keep it short, mention what you learned and then shut up. I'd ask your interview prep person about how to deal with that. Kind of tricky since they can ask about military service and history, but not about medical stuff, and your situation is both.
If you had to recommend an airline interview consultant, who would you recommend?
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,424
OP, it simply won't be a factor.
It was a blip on the radar. I was both enlisted and officer just for reference.
Nobody will care at the airline level. Put some distance and success between you and the event and you will be just fine. Most of the people on these forums have zero clue or frame of reference.
It was a blip on the radar. I was both enlisted and officer just for reference.
Nobody will care at the airline level. Put some distance and success between you and the event and you will be just fine. Most of the people on these forums have zero clue or frame of reference.
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,185
OP, it simply won't be a factor.
It was a blip on the radar. I was both enlisted and officer just for reference.
Nobody will care at the airline level. Put some distance and success between you and the event and you will be just fine. Most of the people on these forums have zero clue or frame of reference.
It was a blip on the radar. I was both enlisted and officer just for reference.
Nobody will care at the airline level. Put some distance and success between you and the event and you will be just fine. Most of the people on these forums have zero clue or frame of reference.
The HIMS professional he contacted said he might need a pysch test, cognitive testing, and a Special Issuance. That's a sign that the FAA might REALLY care.
You say "you will be just fine." Have you even had a beer with him? He should follow the advice of the professionals that have knowledge in this area. They won't have a beer with him but they'll do whatever evaluates the system requires.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post