Any chance of going beyond instruction?
 

Hello All,

It seems on the Pre-Interview page there is a bit of concern over one's own past. Mine is clean, except for one speeding ticket, and my grades have always been good (3.7 cum. GPA in college) in addition to part-time work and extra-curriculars.

However, on an instructional flight some time back, a student violently locked up on the flight controls and our aircraft exited the runway. The firewall was bent, and so the FAA got involved, and I had to take a re-exam flight, in what was called "administrative action." The FAA representative said after two years the records of this event will be expunged from my record. But I honestly think airlines can still get that information, can't they? That information doesn't just go away, does it? Of course, if asked in an interview I would be forthcoming, records showing or not.

I am (was?) on track to be a regional airline F/O or freight pilot. I still instruct, which I really love to do (minus the pay of course), but is this as far as I will go?

If so, I may need to find alternate work to survive. I am not jumping ship however, as I have worked very hard to get here, and quitting is not professional. My current experience is approximately 900 & 80, with my CFI and II (no MEI as of this post) if that sheds new light.

Thank you for your time, with regards to all

I have a co-worker who had a student, for some reason, just reach up and put the landing gear in the "up" position during the roll on a touch and go in a Seneca causing the gear to collapse.

He still got a regional gig.

I wouldn't think it would be a show stopper, guys with DUI's still get hired once and while, and this wasn't something that was directly your fault, nor was it a rule violation of sorts. In fact, you could easily turn this topic into a great interview discussion about level's of comfort as an instructor, and what happened to your comfort level after the incident with your next set of students. I bet your hands/feet were very close if not on the controls at all times like they were when you first became an instructor.
Although I wouldn't say this on an interview, the fact of the matter is, a student who locks up the controls will probably dent an airplane every time, and there is nothing you can do about it. My best example of that notion was something I was told early on in military flight school....If the student pushes the stick full fwd, there is nothing the instructor can do to stop him. Morbid thought, but for the most part true.

I think this incident is one of the perfect "tell me about a time when...." questions that you will be asked.

Plenty of guys with the same story are working at regionals. Major airlines? That might be a problem but by this time the letter should be out of your file

Long term it should not be a problem, even at most majors. It was not a lapse of ethics or judgement (like a criminal issue), and everyone understands that sometimes the CFI simply can't ensure a positive outcome. You will have to explain it carefully at a regional interview, but you are by no means the first CFI to bend an airplane. Accept responsibility, talk about what you learned, and don't try to blame it all on the student. If the student froze and you had to fight for the controls, there might not have been much you could do...there is no requirement that a CFI be stronger than his students.

Remember that most people you will talk to in an interview were instructors at one point also. They should understand.

A few employers might care, but I'm sure you can find plenty that will still hire you. In fact if you can turn it into a story of personal learning and improvement, you might get hired over other guys.

I have a friend who crashed a banner towing plane. He balled it up after the line got wrapped around the rudder during pick up, and he was lucky to get out.
He was a captain at my former employer on Lears and Falcons and now he's at NetJets.

I completely agree with daytona. You'll need to explain the circumstances, but in the end how did this make you a better instructor? How about a better crew member?

Boredwlife is also right on the money - most interviewers were also instructors and understand the fragile nature of instructing.

It won't stop your career. Hang in there!

Thank you all for your input! I appreciate everyone's time and advice, which means a lot to me, especially in a hard time.

As an instructor I was always prepared to hit the student as much and as hard as it took to have them let go of the controls. I know seems bad but students lock up at times and I will do what is necessary to get them to let go of the controls if it came to that.

Of course this is not a method I would suggest during all stages of instruction.

I wrote to Rod Machado, and he echoed doing whatever it was possible to physically overcome the student if need be. I hate to sound like a whiner, but at 150 pounds, I am out-sized by almost every student of mine. Sometimes by nearly twice my weight. (Especially the sport applicants, whose especially large girth makes going in for a medical look like a losing proposition.)

I know this sounds bad, but sometimes I feel like my only physical option is to punch my student in the head to stun them into letting go (only when things get dire of course). Is that too extreme? In the instance I wrote about, I tried to out-stomp the student on the controls, but I couldn't. Plus it happened lightning quick.

I've had several years of martial arts training, and I can tell you that there are weak spots on the human body regardless of its size. Wrists are a prime example. I have heard of instructors carrying a Mag-Lite (D-cells) because it can be used for leverage. That might be a little extreme, but I would recommend you get some training in joint manipulation until you feel comfortable.

I would say even a smack to the headset would be enough to snap someone out of a freeze. Chances are they are holding their breath too. I would be prepared to smack someone after I said "MY PLANE" once and they didn't respond.

Whatever happened to the student who froze and balled up the plane?

The student came out a few more times, and he flew very well, as he always had, but I haven't seen him in a long time now. He called and left what I knew to be a BS excuse as to why he wasn't going to make what turned out to be his last scheduled lesson.

Unfortunately I wasn't the one taking the call, or I would have tried to finesse the situation. I tried to make him feel as comfortable and welcome as possible during the lessons he did come back for. I do, however, feel torn about actively pursuing this person to get them to come back. I'm not sure if giving them a call would open a sore spot for them or if it would make them feel "wanted" or "missed".

One of the reasons many students quit is their instructors doesn't express an interest in them continuing.

Make the call. "Haven't seen you around here lately, when would you like to schedule your next lesson?" If the student is not interested, you can always offer to meet for lunch, coffee, or even a breath mint (this broke the ice for one student). Don't worry about the sale of CFI services, try to save the relationship. Students feel really bad when they make a simple mistake, they feel much, much worse if they ding an airplane.

Now if the school is going after the student for damages, the student has a really good reason for not being interested in further lessons. You might not be able to do anything with that situation.

Good luck!

Karate chop to the throat. Makes them release the controls and grab their throat.

First, thank you for your input. I do feel concerned about chopping to the throat-would that possibly kill someone? My other concern is that in my instance, the gentlemen was violently stomping with his legs.

Maybe a strike to the throat would startle the student exascerbate the stomping action? But then again what would a punch to the head do? I never expected to be seriously considering using blows against a student. :eek:

Honestly, and this came from an old school instructor who was an old man and kind of fragile. The issue is that even if you were to strike a student in the headset they might keep thier leg locked on the rudder. What you need is something that draws attention to thier legs AND causes them to release the controls. This old timers method was a slightly longer then normal push thumb tack. If you push it into the thigh of the student not only will the let go of the controls but thier leg will jerk and move based on simple reflexes. The man said he had only used it twice in close to 22,000 hours of dual given but he truly felt it saved his students and his own life both times.

P.S. He kept it attached to his clip board tied with a break away knot. Ask a boyscout how to tie one because I have no clue.

A thumb tack or some kind of pointy object? Hmmm very interesting. Yes, I agree with you, smacking the student might cause further panic and keep their leg locked on the pedal. This pin idea is worth exploring. That just might do the trick. I wear a knee board all the time, so maybe I could put it on my kneeboard. Thanks for that idea, great information! :D

The hard part is how do I prepare students for this event? I used to go by the FAA's way from the FOI book by emphasizing the positive when prepping a student. For example, saying that 'easy on the controls makes better airplane response' instead of saying that 'easy on the controls prevents the airplane from getting away from you.'

But now I tell students to be nice and gentle and give up the controls when I say "I got it" or else I will

1. shout "I GOT IT!"
...and failing that...
2. do whatever I physically have to do (but a little more eloquently).

Granted prevention is the best medicine, so I reiterate that the student communicates honestly and openly about comfort levels which I feel reduces risk.
Alright, how should I be selling this to my students? :confused: I don't want to scare folks off and lose money, but I do like being upfront and honest about how training will go from day one.

Once again, thanks to all

Unless you are a trained martial artist or EXTEMELY strong, you will not be able to kill someone with a blow to the throat from that angle.

But I'd recommend a blow to the side of the neck with your forearm or the side of your fist, this will get their attention and maybe incapacitate them with almost no chance of serious injury. If you hit the front of the throat you might possibly damage the trachea (medical emergency).

Actually the thumbtack idea is the best one I've heard so far.

The thumb tack is a good one. I suppose a regular ballpoint pen would have a similar effect, and probably do no lasting damage. We all carry pens or pencils on our kneeboards.

1) You'd be amazed at what you can do when the adrenaline is flowing.

2) A former chief instructor I know carried a 2 C-cell mag light because she was very small and had a student lock up on her once. That light would provide more than adequate persuasion.

3) While sport pilots may fly without a medical, they can not do so if they have a condition that would disqualify them from a medical. You may be opening yourself up to some nasty liability when one kills somebody and they see your signature in the logbook. The primary reason the flight school I used to work at hasn't done sport pilot is the intrest has primarily come from this type of person.

Sport Pilots who have never gone in for a medical exam obviously can't fail the exam. So if that person complies with each restriction and limitation imposed by that person's driver's license and any judicial or administrative order, that pilot is good to go.

There is the catch all "not know or have reason to know of any medical condition that would make that person unable to operate a light sport aircraft in a safe manner." But of course that applies to all pilots anyhow.

Say an 80 or 90 year old allows their whatever class medical to expire. They can then exercise the privileges of a Sport Pilot as long as they comply with their drivers license and not know of anything medical conditions preventing safe flight.

Unless I get access to their medical records, which I don't believe I have the legal authority to do, how can I deny someone flight training just by looking at them and thinking, "they look too old, too fat, too prone to this.., etc." So I'm left to finding objective, observable actions or inactions on the behalf of the student to determine if they are neglecting to self-certify their medical airworthiness.

For example, I've flown with older gentlemen who have not been good to their bodies. I see consistently slow reactions and repetitive mistakes. So this is what prevents me from soloing these folks. I'm not gunning for people based on first impressions. But I am looking for safe behavior patterns.

And please don't take this as an attack on your post :) just food for conversation.

Personally I would not solo someone without a third class medical either.

That removes the subjectivity of ME trying to decide if someone is healthy enough, and removes some liaibility...if you solo someone who is obviously not up to medical standards, you would get nailed to the wall in court.

Is it even possible to solo a sport pilot candidate with out a student pilot certificate?

No, you need a certificate, but it does not have to be the one that includes a third class medical. You can get a non-medical student certificate from an AME or the FSDO.

Why not be absolutely covered and have your students get a first class medical? What I'm getting at is if I'm in compliance with what the what the FARs state, how can I be responsible for an overweight person having a heart attack or some other sudden ailment? Or an older person? Or even a young person who has an untimely health problem.

Am I to turn away someone based on looks? "Sir, I'm sorry but you're too old." "Sir you are breathing a little too heavily from the short walk, I think you need to quit smoking and lose some weight first." I believe it's the ethical thing to do to at least give these people a fair shake and let their performance dictate a sign off or not.

Many FBOs are buying LSA to woo those with the time and money to fly. From what I've seen, mostly the baby boomers-those retired or partially retired and the kids out of the nest. The Regionals are slowing hiring, and many on this forum are encouraged to instruct. Some reading this page have or will instruct Sport pilots. When the FAA dropped the medical requirement and cut the total required training time in half, the bar was lowered. Usually when the requirements drop, the quality of applicants drop.

I say this so that those instructing Sport pilots are ready to deal with those who might need extra attention. In my experience, there is an increased likelihood of having 'that talk' with Sport students that they might be better off cutting their losses and stopping training. Most will do very well. But my "bad" Sport students, in general, have been worse than my "bad" private students. This is because, in my opinion, a lower quality student and lower "drive" to be a pilot.

Again, not an attack on any posts. I feel these ethical issues come up when it comes to sport pilots (and also what to do to over come a locked up student.) So I might evoke some emotions in what I write because I have great feelings for the students and instruction.

With regards to all :)