Application Question (failed profic. check?)
 

I am filling out an application and want to get some feedback on this.
I went to a 141 flight school which has intermediate stage checks prior to the end of course check ride.
Here is the question that the application asks?

Have you ever failed any proficiency check, FAA check ride, IOE or line check?

Would an intermediate stage check failure count for a "proficiency check?"

Furthermore, if the 141 school had examining authority, would a failure on the end of course check count as an "FAA check ride."

thanks

I too did 141 training. Stage checks are not reported to the FAA. Only the final check ride at the end of the course is. If you failed a prof check or stage check, it doesn't count. An airline has no way to find out.

Actually the checkride at a 141 school (the "End of Course" stage check) is not reported to the FAA either unless you pass. Technically these cannot be failed, but rather are "incomplete". You get some more training, and come back and complete it later...there is no pink slip, and the FAA only sees the final paperwork after you pass. The school keeps records, but it is only required to for three years and they do not normally report those to an airline or other employer. The PRIA act has no requirement to obtain training records from your student days.

However...since colgan put the spotlight on unreported checkride failures, I would expect to see some rule changes where 141 schools will either start reporting EOC failures to the FAA or will have to keep records for much longer and report such failures to future employers.

Because of that, I would probably go ahead and report an EOC failure to avoid the appearance of deceit if the rules later allow (or more likely require) the employer to access that info.

As far as an intermediate stage check at a 141 school...tough call, but I would consider that no different from a 61 student whose instructor simply decides he needs another lesson on x-wind landings or whatever. I would probably not write it down on an app, but maybe mention it in the interview just to CYA. The interviewer probably won't care.

rickair7777 -

What is the usual answer about any military failures - all the way from **downs** or **SODs** (Signals of Difficulty) in military training commands to the failures of a NATOPS/Instrument simulator or an AF upgrade ride/section lead or division lead checkride?

USMCFLYR

Well...my stock answer would be honesty. But I don't think airlines have any access to military records other than your DD-214 which would only show wings, air medals, and codes to indicate certain quals. Of course your service reputation might or might not become known to people at certain airlines...

Airlines are usually interested in failures of a checkride which would result in an operating privilege if passed, and less interested in the details of a long training program.

I would think phase graduation checks and things like AC or SL checkrides might be the same as as FAA checkrides in that sense. Downs and the like would probably be less significant.

Maybe pose the question in the military forum and see what others have been asked at interviews?

I went to UND and during the courses if regardless if its the end of a course checkride those stage checks if you UNSAT, they put an UNSAT in your logbook. So if say UND never does send those stage checks "UNSATs" to the FAA, you still have them in your logbook. Either way best policy is to be honest then having it come back to haunt you later down the road. I once started to explain an UNSAT on a stage check and the interviewer didnt really care about those...more or less just what I learned from it.

Why are "they" putting anything in YOUR logbook? I see no reason why an unsat progress check should be recorded in a logbook in any way that could negatively impact the pilot later down the road. Even UNSAT checkrides are not recorded as such (although you can usually figure it out by reading between the lines).

It is a UND policy that USAT goes in the logbook. I think it is a good policy at that. If there was no unsat in your logbook when the records check came through it had to be corrected.

As for this issue. I would (and ALWAYS HAVE) report any EOC failure but don't bother with any of the stage checks. I failed my EOC multi-comm-inst ride, always explained it and everytime I mentioned it the person in the interview blew me off and said "How about any checkrides at a 121 or 135 carrier?"

Yeah, no kidding. Part 61 students are not subject to that jeopardy...why would UND want to unnecessarily risk impacting your career? Some tool needs to reevaluate his policy and the basis for it.

That's an insanely stupid policy. "unsat" isn't even a real term in the eyes of the FAA. There's no point in logging anything you aren't required to in your logbook and there is absolutely no requirement to log an UNSAT. ****ed off would not even begin to describe what I would be if I found out that a school I was attending had altered my logbook to reflect "unsat" on a lesson. It's MY logbook, not the school's.

Sure, you can report it... it will likely be blown off like you experienced. At my school (part 61 and 141), we follow the same syllabus for both types of students. We have other CFIs do EOC and progress checks for part 61 students too. If someone doesn't do as well as they could have, then they get some additional training before they take the checkride.

No reason to possibly tank someone's career by putting something negative in their logbook. It's the same reason the FAA tells us not to mention an unsucessful BFR attempt, just log it as training.