Don't be an airline pilot?
 

I see so many pilots saying how bad it is.

So, should I not go for it? I don't care about not getting filthy rich...I just want to be able to make a DECENT living.

Will that be possible in a few years? Really, I've wanted to be an airline pilot since I was 9. 9 YEARS LATER, it's in the crapper.

It was in the crapper just about 9 years ago also.

If it's really what you want to do then you should go for it. You'll find lots of advice as to options from prior posts regarding how to get there (civ or mil), so check them out. My advice is ask yourself if you could see yourself actually doing the job. Don't get caught up in how challenging it will be to actually get there; first ask yourself if you can see yourself doing the job. You should read pro and con arguments with a bit of a critical eye (i.e. why are they for it or against it?). Most here will be in favor of it because it's what they do for a living. If your family knows someone in the business try and get some time with them and chat them up. And then think about it some more before putting money into getting there.

The job is for me, definitely. To this day I've always loved traveling by air...and being in the cockpit would be the time of life.

And you know what? My Uncle who flew for United since the late 60's until the late 90's would've have been ta good guy to talk to about it but unfortunately him and my mother do not talk.

My CFI doesn't plan to go into the airlines so I can't really ask him much.

Some advice:

1)If you really want to become a professional pilot, then you should proceed with that career but be smart about it. Don't rush out and pay $60k to be done in 12 months. Do some research and figure out a cost effective way of obtaining all of your pilot certificates (Private, Instrument, Commercial, Commercial Multi, CFI, CFII at least). If you spend a couple of years working towards this goal, you will be more experienced, will have spent less money, and your timing will likely be much, much better than if you were looking now or even a year from now.

2)Go to college (a cheap state school) and get a good, marketable degree in something useful. Something related to medical, engineering, accounting, etc. This will allow you to have a backup in case something happens to the aviation sector and you find yourself unemployed. I'm sure I'll catch some flack for this, but getting a degree in something aviation related is a big, big mistake... If the aviation industry is in the crapper and you lose your flying job, you are going to have a difficult time using that airport management degree or whatever.

3)Be open about the type of flying you will do as a professional pilot. There are all kinds of different ways to earn a living, and you will be much better off if you take the best opportunity available to you as it presents itself. I used to want to be "an airline pilot". Luckily I was open about it, and after instructing for awhile I worked in 135 charter and now part 91 corporate. Thank God I went that route instead of the regionals.

4)Be willing to move where ever you have to, within reason. I grew up in Colorado, and I love it there. But the job market sucks in Denver so I moved to south FL. As far as my aviation career goes, it was an excellent decision. I know people that are still stuck in dead end pilot jobs (or have totally quit aviation) as they were unwilling to move when they were starting out.

4)Keep your expenses down. Do not buy a new car, don't get married, don't buy a house, etc. You really, really need to be flexible when you're starting out.

Good luck!

Getting married can be (besides the other reasons why you marry) financially beneficial if your spouse makes decent money. This can give you flexibility when it comes to choosing between Campbell's soup or the more premium Chunky soup.

True...if he/she is willing put up with moving all the time, having you away from home. A divorce if they aren't behind you can be much more costly than being single one on one income.

wrxpilot hit the nail on the head, listen to what he/she said.
It's exactly what I would have told you.

Obviously, being a "pilot in training" I am...well..this advice is still news to me.

wrxpilot, thanks for the advice. I'll definitely take into mind.

Very eloquently stated wrxpilot. This is good advice for anyone starting out in this career.

Take your time SoCal, choose wisely and listen to your instincts. This is not the industry it was 25 years ago - the money went by the way of the A list. People now get into this profession because they love to fly...a true passion.

Good luck!

And you know what? My Uncle who flew for United since the late 60's until the late 90's would've have been ta good guy to talk to about it but unfortunately him and my mother do not talk.

My CFI doesn't plan to go into the airlines so I can't really ask him much.[/quote]

Call your Uncle anyway. You will be surprised about how much he will enjoy talking to you about "the good old days". He will definitely be happy to hear that you are looking into becoming a pilot.

Yea when a gallon of gas was a dollar and the RJ was still coming out. I can only speak from the regional airline perspective which you will be stuck for a good portion of your early adult life(time when family should be a concern) and it sucks, it really really sucks. If you want to turn this into a hobby that's fine but the rest of us a trying to earn a living. There is no way I'd let a nice view a t 37000 get in the way of my QOL on earth.

Call your Uncle anyway. You will be surprised about how much he will enjoy talking to you about "the good old days". He will definitely be happy to hear that you are looking into becoming a pilot.[/quote]

I cannot. It's a long story, but I can't.

Anyways, I just need some advice on making a game plan for my career....

You are just another of the mass of people who dream of flying for a career. The dream is STARKLY different from reality. However, like most that have come before you, you'll need to experience it for yourself to really judge.

My greatest advice is to build credentials outside of aviation and fly for fun. When you get to a point where all your ratings are in the bag, then figure out whether its time to jump in or not.

As for me, I spent many years acquiring all my ratings while building credentials toward becoming a CPA. I built up some money as such, then decided to try aviation professionally. I did that for just about 2 years before being thrown on the street. The door will stay shut for 2-3 more years as age 65 goes through, pilots are recalled, etc. After that, I just might go back. However, I'll use my CPA credential to hedge against the cycle - so that I don't really NEED the job. I've also decided to have a child during the next 2-3 years when aviation jobs are at a low. If after having a child and being home every night to experience that, and after knowing what I know after 2 years of 121 flying, and after having worked as a CPA for another 2-3 years, if I still long for a jet cockpit, I'll give it another shot.

I don't consider my path a model of perfection. However, if you put all your eggs into aviation, you'll be sorry you did. Prepare yourself to do something else in parallel with aviation, then jump back and forth as needed.

I also know many pilots who would complain about a free lunch at Ruth's Chris Steakhouse too. :D

Should you? I don't think you are going to get a one-time definitive response from anyone here that will answer this question. The best I can offer is to take everyone's experience and comments into consideration.

While your attitude is admirable, may I humbly submit that it also may change in the future? Money shouldn't be the ultimate goal, but neither should a willingness not to pursue wealth should you have the opportunity to do so. Many begin this career out of nothing more than a desire to fly and end up discouraged by low wages and/or career earnings.

YOU will have to define what is considered a decent living, because you will get as many different opinions as the number of people whom you ask. Do you want a house? How many cars will you need/want? Do you want to retire sooner or later, and with how much? Where do you want to live? This is just a sampling of questions that you will need to answer first before you can have a quantitative definition of decent as it pertains to your wages.

Who knows?

In an historical sense it has always been in the proverbial crapper. From it's inception, the airline industry has never been a profitable venture. While there has been some good years over that time, it has certainly not been the prevalent norm. Every generation of pilots have had to contend with the possibility of a furlough, an airline bankruptcy, mergers, and downturns in the economy. Nothing new under the sun.

If you have the expectation of having an employer see you through the productive life of 30 years of employment, and then enough time to fulfill any retirement promises, then don't pursue airline pilot work. Ask Maslow how fun it is to do "something you love" when you starve doing it and worry every day you won't be able to do it tomorrow.....I'd love to do something I hate if it paid me decent and didn't go away tomorrow. just some nuggets of peanut gallery obvious.

If that's your criteria, then don't bother with anything as you'll be very disappointed.

Aim Low
 

Aim low as a professional pilot and you will not be disappointed !

Perhaps a better way of explaining long term shortcomings as a pilot is to say that other professions have more portable professional value and can build career momentum over a 30 year period. Pilots have to start over every time they get a new job.

Skyhigh

Yeah that's my criteria, private employers are pretty much out, that's for sure...:rolleyes: Call me french but I work to live, not the other way around. If people choose to live in a country where their employers expect them to pack up and ship out every 7 years, move x-country like it's moving down the street, screaming kids in tow, reset their professional seniority at every hiccup of the economy, get "globalized" at work-year-29 and expected to "re-train" at the age of 52 to become the neo-nurse of the 22nd century, all the while taking a paycut to fund their own retirement, and call it NORMAL, that's on them. I don't want to get rich, but when I'm out of a job I want the rest of my street to be out of one too. I'm not falling on my own sword so that the non-productive sector of society can get a quarter of a point raise in their shares.

I proclaim the aforementioned in 1950 and it was par for the course, but because I'm under 35 I voice that and it's blasphemy all of a sudden?!? Forget that, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. The race to the bottom has to stop somewhere.

Whatever you decide, don't depend on the income you generate from flying. (learned the hard way, even though I had lots of savings). An education from a reputable university never hurts, particularly the cache of graduate networking. Find something that you can do to make money, but something you can do on your own without working for someone else. When ATA started going south the first time in '04-'05 I gave serious consideration to welding. The schooling would have conflicted with the flying at the time, so I didn't do it. But, it's something you can do out of your house/truck, and they make pretty good money.

If your parents will let you live with them until you are 30, and borrow their car then go for it... Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to afford anything. Even 50K a year is barely enough for a ****ty apartment with a half decent car these days. Try having a fraction of those things with your 16 grand a year salary and ridiculous school loan payment that tops your net income.

When you get furloughed at 35, then be prepared to have to move back in with your parents yet again.

Girlfriend or wife? Probably wouldn't be able to keep one around.

=)

Don't sell your soul for a damn job. And don't work for anyone that won't pay you a livable wage. That's just disrespect. If you like computers, take up programming or software engineering. But stay out of IT - because you will always be viewed as a cost center and will be crapped on all day by idiots that make 5 times as much as you but are about 1/5 as smart as you. And don't put your life on hold. I did that for 3 years and found myself in the same place spinning the same wheels only to realize I just lost and wasted the best years of my life (early 20's) waiting for something that's not going to happen or worth it anyway.

Like others have said, professional aviation needs to be approached very cautiously.

Can you succeed at it?
Absolutely!

Will you succeed?
Do you have any dice?

Life is sort of like a ratchet. Everyday that ticks by cannot be undone. If you have a desire to live comfortably, the likelihood of doing it outside aviation is higher than inside. The beauty here, though, is that you can train for both. Having two careers open to you allows you to pick the best of each at any given time. The aviation world is pretty dry right now and so I am working in my backup career at present. When/if aviation turns around, I'll go back. It beats the alternative of long term unemployment.

You really can have your cake and eat it too. But you better roll up your sleeves and work hard to attain the prize.

Best of luck!

First bold quote above
That is pretty broad statement there Dan.
It also comes across - since you said you were in that situation - thinking that you are smarter than everyone you work with/for.
From your previous posts I wouldn't have thought that was your attitude.
Maybe you meant that these people who are angering you aren't 1/5th as smart as you are about computer or IT stuff?

The second bolded statement is what a lot of people are saying about the airlines right now; yet you wish to pursue a career in aviation correct?

USMCFLYR

Sorry, was having a bad day... But allow me to respond to your comments..

I don't feel this way about 'everyone'. I'd say a good 10%, but it only takes 1 bad apple to ruin your day because their wrath more than compounds over the other 90%. I'd say 98% of our problems come from 2% of our users, and it somehow is always IT's fault (according to them). But the ones that feel that way about me (5 times smarter deal), or IT people in general, I feel that exact same way toward them. Work in the field for 5 years and trust me, you will know what I mean. These are the same people that are always at the ticket counters EVERY flight complaining to the poor gate agent about nothing just trying to get over or get something for free. The same people that treat waiters and waitresses like prison inmates, or basically anyone in the service industry that they never had to work in . Same personality type - this is how they became VP's to begin with - walk on everyone around them to climb the ladder themselves (If they weren't already born into it, which most of them are). I am the furthest thing from a snob or pretentious that you can get... Blue collar upbringing - finally finishing my degree now - at 25. So trust me, I am way above that whole thinking anyone is better than anyone nonsense.

This goes way beyond computers or technology. Things lacking like common sense, respect, thinking us 'regular folk' don't realize their true intentions or deceptions and rubbing it right in your face because you have to bite your tongue... If computers didn't exist, it would just be something else they think they are 'above'.

About aviation career. I still kinda do... But I'm not getting any younger, and my bills aren't getting any lower. So I don't know if it's gonna happen. Especially if the first 5 years of the career remain below poverty line pay.

I do want to work out a plan for myself. Should I get a degree in something else, and go for it? I'll have my backup plan to fall back on will I?

Ultimately your decision to pursue a given major will be your decision. Take the advice of many, weigh the pros and the cons and then make the best informed decision that you can. With that being said, I will offer you my $0.02. :)

If it were me, and I had the opportunity to pursue a degree and fly, then I would most certainly pursue a degree outside of aviation. Why? One word - diversification.

What would I study? I would make a list of everything that interests me which could possibly be studied. Next, I would see how feasible those skills would assist me in the real world. i.e., do I have a truly marketable skill or just a piece of paper?

Many will tell you to get a degree outside of aviation solely as a back-up in case flying does not work out. I will challenge you with this thought. In the event that it will work out, would it be nice/beneficial to have another skill that you can practice in addition to flying? Think about the opportunity(ies) that may abound for you on your days off.

Again, the latter part of my post is just my thoughts and opinion, so take it for what it is worth. Just be sure to put much thought into whatever decision you decide to make.

Its a hedge against the down times if nothing else.

First you must analyze the #'s does this make sense. For example the avg "flying airline line pilot" will receive about 300 hrs/month in per diem.

If spending 300 hrs/month at work sounds like your kinda gig.:eek: Then go for it.;)

Also ALPO I mean ALPA has some pilot pay data on their website check it out.

Other career
 

The development of another career aside from flying makes you more interesting and useful as a pilot. Pilots with aviation degrees can be viewed a mono dimensional one trick pony. Not all that interesting.

Aside from that pilots need to work two jobs to make a go of it. Get a degree in something other than aviation.

Skyhigh

Well, I'm glad I asked my question and got the answers, to be honest. Not the answers I wanted to hear, but answers.

You see, it was up until a year ago that I had my pipe dream about being an "airline pilot." I'll share with you guys...

When I was 11 (two years after I started taking flying lessons), me and my mom went on a trip to Hawaii from LAX. Well, I got to go in cockpit of the ATA 757. Being a young kid who loved flying, it was heaven.

I was asking the Captain and FO things such"so when do you put you're landing gearup?" I even remember the FO telling me what the SID chart on the yoke meant..and me not really caring and just looking at the pretty flight display. Anyways, I then went on to tell my mom how I wanted to fly for an airline.

Are you guys ready for this? Here we go: "Yeah, I think once I get my pilots license I'll start out small and go for Southwest. After I fly for Southwest for a few years I'm gonna go for United or American Airlines and when they ask me what plane I want I'll take the 747. When I'm an airline pilot you can take as many free vacations as you want."

Ahh man, how about that? Getting a "pilots license," starting out for Southwest, and then going for a bigger airline and choosing your favorite airliner. And then once you choose your favorite airplane you can give your old mother an unlimited amount of vacations. Wouldn't that be something? :D

Although, my dream wasn't always THAT ridiculous. After a while I just thought you head for an airline, stay with them, and build your way up while making a good salary...

Well, if you have the dream, that is alright. Go for it! Just know that it is not what you think it is and make sure you diversify yourself along the way.

I'm happier than a pig in **** that I at least tried. I got to fly a jet for 1000+ hours and certainly scratched the itch. Whether it is out of my system or not, I don't know yet (not sure it ever will be). But, I am excited about a life outside professional aviation and could have only really gotten here with the understanding of what it is like inside. I only flew for 2 years, but between commuting (jumpseating up front with SWA crews, AA crews, USAir crews), talking to captains in my airline, experiencing it for myself, etc, I feel I got a good representative sample of what its all about.

Its not all bad - much of it is pretty darn cool. But, just be smart about how you get there and keep the exit open just in case you decide you don't like it.

Aviation CAN be pursued in a private manner. You just need to get your CFI/II and find a career that pays well.

I just wish I would have told the Captain the same thing I yapped to my mom about during the flight. I don't know if he would have just passed it off and said "yeah go for it" or sat me down in the jumpseat and told me that's not quite how it works.

[Disclaimer: I'm not an airline pilot. Just a lowly grad student with 230 TT working on my commercial]

I don't think being an airline pilot would be that bad of a gig. It's not the best career in terms of how well it rewards vs. what you have to put in to get a job, but that shouldn't be a deal buster if it's all you really want to do in life. I wanted to be an airline pilot for a long time. But for one thing, now that I've got a few hundred hours, I'm realizing that flying the same flight profile on the same routes or similar routes, in the same airplane for the rest of my life wouldn't be that exciting. The reason flight training is so much fun is because you're always doing different things, always advancing to new airplanes, there's always a new procedure to learn or a new level of accuracy to shoot for. I don't really see those same traits in an airline pilot's lifestyle.

Personally, I'm a weekend pilot for now. If the military will have me, then I'll fly apaches for the army or f-16's for the ANG. If not, then I'll be a CFI on the weekends and an aerospace engineer during the week. I'm glad I didn't commit myself 100% to being an airline pilot.

I could still quit my job and go be an airline pilot within a few years if I decided I wanted to, but if I'd gone to ERAU, gotten a degree in aviation science, and was a furloughed RJ pilot, the reverse would not be true. YMMV.

Just remember if flying is your #1 right now, another career doesn't mean you need a degree, you can be just as or more profitable if you have any other ability, take classes, courses that would refine this ability, usually a degree wouldn't be that useful if you already have a job flying, you can become more useful in many other things even without getting a degree.

The majority of airline pilots have had office jobs, either as civilians or in the military. What you are gripping about is often fact, but you have one great advantage...you can quit for a better opportunity and often get paid more to boot. That is almost never an option in airlines...you either take an untenable pay and QOL cut to start over as furlough-fodder at the bottom of someone else's list, or you are viewed with suspicion for wanting to make a lateral move.

The airlines used to be worth a significant amount of BS because the payoff was high if you made it in the end...but that is no longer the case for most airlines.

Dan, I believe much of your problems are in your head. You seem to view yourself as separate from the rest of the so called "lemmings" of the world and holding significant altitude above them. Do you think this viewpoint is really unique to you?

No matter what your job is, you've got to look at the world through your own life "filters" and my guess is you'll see a similar theme in the airline world to what you see in the IT world. Your viewpoint will follow you no matter where you go.