Do busts really matter if from PNCL or MESA??
 

I have had good luck on all my checkrides from when I first started. I worked at another regional airline before with a long wait for upgrade. I came here to go for the "guaranteed" quick upgrade. Unfortunately, that did not happen with the age 65 rule.

Recently I "popped" a checkride here. First and only failure. I am wondering how the majors will look at this.

I know majors look very closely at your training record. But if they see a bust on a PC at one of these bottom feeder companies, do they even consider it? Now I truely know the reason and driving force behind the quick upgrade here.

It just seems when you have an airline that hands out failures like a NYC meterman, that the recruiters at the top level would probably see right through that.

If you go into the interview saying Pinnacle fails everyone, then i hope you enjoy your career at pinnacle. Admit you screwed up, know the reason why you screwed up, and man up and show that you learned from it, and they probably wont care about one failure.

Not to be rude, but are you asking if you are considered a real pilot or semi pilot if you work for Mesa? It just seems like a silly question. If you feel that a regional airline has an inferior level to the quality of pilot and training than that of a major, passing the checkride should be easier right? What I mean is that a pilot is a pilot and expected to perform to the standards put forth by the FAA no matter which carrier you are at. Of course a legacy or major would see that as a flaw in your abilities. If you can't hack it at a regional, then why should you be able to hack it at a legacy?

I agree. It sounds like you trying to blame the company you work for.

Be honest in the interview and admit why you had an unsat. Busts can and will happen in a career. More than one and you will have a hard time explaining that "it was just a bad day". Reference Colgan and Pinnacles crashes. Both commanded by Captains who had "five bad days" and their sub par performance led them to the final bad day. An unsat should be a time of introspection. Ask yourself why you failed and how you can improve your performance. Don't let it happen again. Some guys have bad days and others are genuinely unprepared. Either way, improve the performance.

As stated, admit you screwed up and don't blame anyone else. Everyone has bad days and didn't perform as they should have. Just show how you improved yourself and that's about it.

Blaming the training department is about the worst thing you can do. I was at Pinnacle for 7 years and never busted, I know plenty of people there for longer who haven't also.

Understandably, there are standards set forth that pilots AND the examiners need to follow. Given multiple failures at the same time is rediculous. If the examiner doesn't create a realistic environment, what do you do?? When you're going missed on a CAT 2, and an engine fire happens along with thrust reverser deployment all at the same time...is overwhelming. No excuses, but a fair shake would be nice to have. And it doesn't make it any easier when your examiner has a reputation of having a desire to fail people.

It just amazes me, failures are rare at major airlines. Regional airlines fail people constantly. Is it the quick minded video game playing younger generation that are better pilots? Or the gray haired weather pilots with experience better? YOU CANT SAY!!! It's really determined by each individual pilot. All I know is the bottom feeders are plagued with failures. Busts at bottom feeders are just a way of life it seems. At the major level, the more professional level, it seems that warm up sims, training to proficiency are a very very nice thing to have on your side.

From the ATP PTS.
 

How long have you been at Pinnacle? You should know after at least a couple rides that when you push the power up on a go around in the sim, something is probably going to happen and it's not going to be fun.

While that is one of the harsher things I've heard done (if that's really how it happened), it is what it is and you've got to play the game as many of us on here have done and succeeed.

Man up to the unsat and see what you did wrong and make yourself better from it. I've been rode hard by TH as much as many others on here.


So yes... busts really do matter. Don't collect them. I consider myself a much better pilot for the wringer that I got put through during my time there.

Its been a while...but I didn't think they could give you compound failures on a "jeopardy" checking event?

Well, two schools of thought. One, the majors are able to attract the "creme de la creme" from the military as well as regional and other majors. The interview process weeds out the chaff and the strong generally make it through. As a result, there are fewer failures because they attract and retain the strongest pilots by and large.

Two, the regionals don't have the luxury of always attracting the best and the brightest and retaining them. As a result, the weeding out is done during training. You are right, there are rogue check airman out there. When they exist, the need to be counseled and if they don't correct their performance they need to be removed as check airman. That is a simple fix. The reality is, the POI overseeing the airline doesn't like high bust rates. It's easy for a Program Manager to look at the baseline failure rates and compare them to check airmen. If the usual pass rate is 90% and one check airman passes only 50% then perhaps there is a problem. The other issue is that most regionals don't operate under AQP training requirements. Therefore, they do a standard 441 ride where its pass or fail. Now it is up to the check airman but with the exception of the ATP/Type Ride they have the ability to redo a maneuver up to three times. But that's his discretion.

Again, ask yourself why you got an unsat? Did you not prioritize properly. The engine on fire is designed to pull your attention from the fact that a reverser deployed. Going missed off CAT I, II or III shouldn't matter. Its the same maneuver just closer to the ground. Fly the plane. Let the fire burn. Take care of the reverser. Once its stowed, then take care of the fire. If you got distracted and didn't fly the airplane within tolerance its a legit bust. He must see you can demonstrate mastery of the plane under all conditions.

Don't they give you 3 TTP here at Pinnacle? Even if you screw up your engine failure, that should only be one TTP. I keep hearing all these rumors about how pilots at Pinnacle such such as "Pink slip xxx" busting a PC for something very small, but when I was in the sim (as a non-fly) with him giving a Type ride I thought he was more than fair. There has to be more to the this story.

To answer your question, I can't say what it will do to your chance of getting on with the majors, but if it was me, I would just be honest about it and try not to blame someone else.

This has nothing to do with your question, but if you consider the company you work for (Pinnacle) a bottom feeder, why don't you just put your 2 weeks notice in. If that's how you feel about the company you work for. IMO it sounds like you wanted to come here and wanted the quick upgrade and that didn't happen, you are ****ed off at the company, later on busted a PC and try to blame someone else but yourself.

Something sounds off. Both MESA and PNCL will retrain in the checkride 3 times prior to failure.... Ie 3 "sim freezes".

What does Mesa have to do with this? You fly for Pinnacle, right? A bust is a bust, I don't care who you work for. I think it's weak that you'd even ask this question here in the form that you did.

A significant number of pilots have made it through training at both Mesa and Pinnacle and never busted anything. Blaming the airline will do nothing but make you look bad. Like others said, own up to your error, learn from it, and take the stance that nobody is perfect.

Which airline has this on their application?

In the past, they might overlook one bust at any airline, particularly if it was known by the recruiters to hand out an inordinate number of failures.

But post-pinnacle, I have a suspicion that majors will be concerned about the liaibility associated with us sub-par regional pilots. Unfortunately, a plaintiff's attorney could do a lot of damage with blemishes on a pilot's record. My guess is airline legal departments may set limits on who they can hire. I assume one bust would not be a deal breaker, but I would prefer not to have one in this climate. If your next few are good that will help to put this one behind you.

Also think about how you will address this at an interview...

DO NOT say that the examiner was unfair, too tough, inconsistent, etc...even if that's exactly what happened. This will indicate that you don't accept responsibility.

I would also avoid a "poop happens" explanation (even though poop does in fact happen). This will send the message that you are lackadaisical and not firmly committed to controlling your destiny...or that you simply suck.

Even if you really didn't do anything wrong, I might make up an explanation about what happened, how you learned from it, and what you will do differently in the future. They want to feel comfortable that this will not be a trend, so you need to identify a "fix" (even if there really isn't one).

Just ask yourself if major airlines consider your experience in Pinnacle or MESA as valid experience to hire you, I think that they do since PCL pilots have moved on to greener pastures without a problem, so if the answer evidently is yes, then so their training records are consider valid. You also said that failures are rare at majors, how do you know that? training records are not available to anyone outside of the training departments and just because pilots don't come here and cry the blues about how the checker was unethical and busted me, how dared he? that doesn't mean they do not happen.

Other pilots that have busted a ride before have gone on to major airline jobs, but I can guarantee you that none that have your attitude has.

If that is even what happened, In my experience as a check airman I have learned that individuals explaining their bust are always presenting an "Iceberg" they only show a small portion of the event usually reconstructed to make everything else but them to be at fault but you don't see what is under the water line, usually twice as large as what they show

The more I read your post, the more inclined I am to remind you," When you think you're surrounded by *********s, It's probably you".

You have a poor attitude when it comes to professionalism and manning up. Perhaps you have a future in Airline Management, or politics.

You may want to brush up on your spelling too, from what I understand, Delta is very unforgiving with regard to typos on your application.

As a former sim check airman, you can't "GIVE" a compound failure on a type, but an applicant can certainly "CREATE" one on their own. I'm just sayin..........maybe that's the case here.

How is a T/R deploy with associated fire a "multiple failure"? Catastrophic failure within the engine could deploy T/Rs and cause a fire indication. Obviously if a T/R is deploying uncommanded you have some sort of catastrophic failure. Going missed from the bottom of a CAT 2 (or 1 or 3) approach is inconsequential.

Correct. However nothing described so far indicates a compounding failure. Compounding failures are permitted provided that they are caused by the pilots improper direct actions (or inaction- failure to take proper corrective procedures could result in related cascade failures.)

If the OP failed a checkride because of a LH Engine T/R deployment at the MAP, which was shortly followed by a RH Engine fire indication, I'd probably give some slack. Personally, if I feel that a sim is being run unfairly, then I'm going to request that the instructor freeze the sim and explain why they feel that their scenario is justified.

That said, when I climb into the sim, I'm usually asking for punishment with a smile on my face. :D Personally, I like having regular training events- even when I was with the airlines I enjoyed climbing into the box every 6 months... Jeopardy event or not.

Orals on the other hand... you can keep those! :eek:

That's what I thought...

Of course, that didn't stop me from getting a circling, OEI, no flap, manual gear extension & emergency brake stop landing for my last approach/landing on my CE500 type ride...:D

"We wouldn't and couldn't have busted you on it but wanted to see if you could handle it all - and yup, you could."

My most fun experience in the sim was OEI smoke filled cockpit doing an ILS on backup instruments and having the working engine catch fire at about 1000' AGL. We got it down and then went to have a beer :D

I particularly hate the "OEI, operative engine fire at the marker" in the sim - mostly because the first engine took both fire bottles to put a fire out in it so you've got no options.

Punch the Master Warn, tell the PNF you're continuing to the runway and to have CFR standing by, and drive the beast onto the runway for a hard stop, emergency shutdown and evacuation leading directly to the sim center break room for a cup of coffee...:D

My sim partner from training had a strange situation that he now thinks will certainly keep him in the regional ranks forever. He went in for the oral, busted for various reasons, came back the next day, passed the oral, hopped in the sim, had an awful day, then failed the sim. Even though this was all for the same event, apparently training records show this as 2 seperate failed events since they were on different days with different instructors. Although this happened several years ago and he hasn't had any problems since, makes you really want to go in prepared as it seems with the new legislation, a situation like this would probably make any major throw out your application without thinking twice. As for one remote failure though, explain it and learn from it, and I'm sure you'll be fine.