Info for those seeking their 1st airline job
 

Last February I found myself looking over these forums as a wide eyed instructor with 850 hours of TT trying to figure out what the differences between the various regional airlines were and which ones I thought would give me a shot at being an Airline pilot. With no family or friends in the industry and only about 1.5 years flying myself these forum were just about my only source of information.

While these forums gave me a lot of valuable information, some of the information was misleading and/or I didn't know what it meant. For example I knew what per diem and could see the rates but how many hours of it could I expect on average and therefore how important was it in my decision. I decided to fly for Great Lakes and was given a job last April. I am now looking for a job anywhere else (along with most Lakes pilots) and I'm looking back over the same information I had just over a year ago but now I can put the information in context. Below is my estimation of the lowest pay for 2 years you can expect from a few airlines.

These assume you never break guarantee, never get a junior assignment, 0 deadhead, include signing bonuses, and 300 hours of per diem per month which is admittedly high for reserve but average for line holders and Lakes. It also assumes you upgrade at Lakes and switch to the captain pay at 16 months (1000 hrs/75 per month+1 month for pretest+1 month for training). I will add in any other airlines that anyone would like, and you can easily calculate it for yourself I just thought I would post it since I did everything out already and save people the work. Also if you work for another regional and my estimations are off please let me know both for my information as well as others looking for jobs.

Estimated First 2-year Earnings:
Great Lakes $42,883.05
Mesa $56,304.00
Skywest $60,300.00
Pinnacle $64,440.00
Republic $65,480.00
Eagle $71,960.00

You might want to re-work those figures. Especially with Pinnacle and RAH. Soft pay goes a long way along with treatment of crews by management combined with contract, growth and financial stability should be your deciding factors...

Off this list alone, if I had to choose where to go, here are my choices from top to bottom

SkyWest
Eagle
Mesa,RAH and Pinnacle equally suck...
Great Lakes

Agreed with above. How about a realistic figure of 20k gross for the first year. Net of 16k. This is at XJT, which is in the high/middle pay range. So don't try to sweeten the pie... tell it like it is. And yes, this includes per diem.

I wasn't using net pay, all figures are gross income and for the first two years not one. I listed how I came up with them if you think my assumptions are wrong then tell me but unless you can say specifically where, it's not productive.

Also I do not claim that pay is the only thing to consider when choosing where to apply but it's also not something that should not be ignored so I put some numbers up to consider.

Contract, stability, growth, reputation, and a dozen other things are very important and already discussed elsewhere.

Are you telling people not to go to lakes? I don't get the point..

I heard air whiskey guys make around 85k gross the first two years.. Don't ask me how I know. ;)

Regionals. All about decisions.

I'm not sure where you got those figures from but my W-2 shows that I made 16k my first year at Skywest. Reserve the whole first year + a few months of training pay with hardly any non-taxable per diem. Never broke guarantee.

Great company but you're definitely not going to make 60k across your first two years unless you get extremely lucky somehow.

You already fly for Great Lakes? Did you upgrade there? Unless you are in danger of being furloughed, you're better off upgrading there and getting some TPIC time before you go to another regional.

Rcfd13: unless you were hired on January 1st you can't look at a w2 for your entire first year pay. And if you are looking at a W2 and a year to date pay stub you must be looking at net, not. In one year at lakes (class date of 4/2/12 - 3/31/13) I grossed 14,517.60 which is exactly a 1.24% margin of error off what I calculated

Net pay depends on taxes which vary by state so it's useless to compare them.

BTpilot: As I said previously, I'm posting in case they are helpful to someone else, I would never tell anyone not to go to lakes, but I'd want to make sure they were making an informed decision because I sure as hell didn't.

Fair enough. Good on you..

Some guys have no idea. But they end up at G7... Ruh roh :(

(22*60*3) + (22*75*9) = $18,810. (3 months training pay + 9 months reserve guarantee)

That would be what a pilot would earn first year before taxes with no per diem. This does not include uniform deductions and paying for travel benefits which come out of the first few paychecks. I had very little per diem first year and only flew 120 hours in my first 8 months. That pay is very close to what I actually earned BEFORE taxes.

The second you become a lineholder quality of life increases dramatically. Subsequent years have been a lot nicer to me.

I didn't go through and try to figure out their training pay but using your formula there for year 1 puts the 2 year gross pay at 54,060.

Under your assumptions, LXJT = $64,578. By the way, there is an old thread here that compared actual contract language. I'll look for it when I get a chance.

Shocking about the pay..... have to start somewhere. :(

You know, people often warn future pilots about the pay they're going to make the first few years. However, as a student in college who is learning to fly, 18K beats the ~10K I'm making now. As long as you live within your means and don't go out and buy a BMW as soon as you're offered a reserve job you should make it okay. You might have to commute to work in order to live somewhere affordable but that's part of being in this industry. Bottom of the totem pole really isn't as bad as people make it sound, i'm willing to bet. It's these kids that go in with a self-righteous "i'm a big bad pilot" attitude that are probably telling people like myself to steer clear of the industry.

10k is pretty good. Considering you don't have to pay school loans yet. But combine that with only a 8k increase in pay. Plus those that have a family, mortgage, etc.. it is nothing!

Name another career that you spend this amount of time in training/school only to earn 20k per year? Residency doctors earn average of 40k. That is the equivalent of the amount of time/training we put in out of flight instructing for 2 years to get into a regional. Plus if doctors lose their job in the future, they don't restart at the bottom! They pick up where their experience level will pay them.

I know not every pilot can be a doctor, and the same goes the other way. Something has got to change.

Lucky for me, I guess, that I have the GI Bill and won't worry about student loans. Not to bash those that do - the military is not for everyone. That's what I'm saying though, living withing your means. If someone is only making peanuts, how do they expect to start a family and pay a mortgage? Edit: I guess I should throw in there that I am not 18 and just getting into college. I am 23 and have been supporting myself (and all my bills) since I was 18 and joined the Air Force. So, the 10K goes quickly but It's managable and I'm happy.

I do know that not on size fits all in any field. There are people who start learning to fly having already started a family and who already have mortgages. And with them, I empathize. That's gotta be tough.

My only point is that it's not as imfathomable to start out in the industry [for most] as a lot of people are claiming is all. :)

No need to exaggerate the woes of airline pilots (regional and some P135 pilots inparticular), but please don't use some crazy comparisons either!
In the last decade, people have been able to come out of high school, go through a '0-Hero pipeline' and get on with a regional airline in 6 months to ONE year and 350 hrs. You are going to try and compare that route with a Doctor's route to residency even?
Even with the 1500 hr rule in use soon the path will still be less in most instances.

Flaps15 -
Truthfully - have you been on your own yet Flaps?

Edit: I'm glad to see from the post above that you have been out on your own so far. You see one of the big mistakes people make and that is starting a family first and this career second and planning on living up to a certain standard that the early profession won't provide. When you were in the military - were you off base alone< with roommates, on base/eating the chow hall?

My game plan as of now is to be on my own two feet and successful before I begin to think about a family. That's going to be an entirely different and larger expense. But, who knows what the future will hold.

For three years I was on base as is required by the Air Force. My meals and housing were free, obviously. My fourth year, I was in an Apartment, no roommates, raking in all that BAH and BAS. Now, while in school and separated, I have two roommates and eat on the cheaper side of things - but I'm still comfortable.

You are on the right track and have a solid gameplan! Congrats!
Welcome to the game Flaps.

To the OP, thanks for taking the time to help other pilots make an informed decision. I'm sure adding more airlines would help even further. Maybe add a few disclaimers in there, though!

To Flaps15, $18k is pitiful. But even moreso when you are on your fourth airline due to furloughs, bankruptcies and bad luck!!! So many people miss the point that regionals aren't just where new hire CFI's go. Half of most classes are 30 something year olds hating life. Keep that in mind.

Even using a zero to hero program - They are usually stuck in the regionals for a good amount of time due to having no degree or need to complete one in today's market. If they have a degree already, then I count that as training toward your career path and equal to a doctor. Most doctors will minor in pre-med but will get their 4 year in something similar.

The 1500 hour rule will make it similar experience required to start a doctor's residency.

The most recent exception to this was in the 90's hiring when majors were looking at 250 hour guys.

Sorry - I didn't realize you were narrowing your view of the *profession* to only major airline jobs requiring a 4 year degree.
From your first post I quoted it was pretty clear that you were saying hat regional pilots and doctors had similar paths:
If we are going to cherry pick parts of the profession to compare then - let's chose whatever medical speciality has the LONGEST residency to full qualification.

Where is Cardiomd user when you need him (her?) for specifics :)

I am comparing the 121 profession in general, under the assumption that MOST people want to go towards the big iron. Sorry for the confusion.

I hope he can chime in to give specifics for longest residency; pay; and what you start at if you get canned/released from your practice? :)

I'm not trying to bicker, I'm just trying to prove a point to the aspiring pilots that it isn't what it is cracked up to be. The recruiting at many flight schools flash only the big paychecks/QOL at most majors. With premenition of a MASSIVE pilot shortage. I only wish all the 13+ year captains in the regionals with intentions of moving on and individuals with multiple furloughs in the regionals, could make a public announcement video to the public.

USMC - I respect your opinions/experience and what you do for the rest of us :D

I think most do - but you did compare making it through med school to being a regional pilot in your first post. For the most part yimke - we are agreeing - especially in your last post above regarding the non-transfer of experience across the board.
I think in the end what we are trying to convey is from start to first stage of a doctor's (let just call that after medical school) or airline pilot's career (first P121 airline); those timelines are NOT equal in my opinion.

I agree with you completely. Even having started my flying career in '85, and having served with many peers who went on to airline careers, I was terribly informed about the airline career path, business models of the regional, and basically what was important with the cost cutting (e.g. - I was actually naive enough to think that a regional would LIKE a pilot who didn't want to move onto the majors!)

Hey! You enjoy the heck out of those ILSs approaches:D and may they deliver you on course/on glideslope each and every time to the runway! :D

That admittedly escaped me. I'm sure it's frustrating at that point - once you have built a career and a family and established yourself somewhere just to be furloughed and pretty much lose it all with no helping hands. Cheers.

What are the odds of a corporate pilot that is thinking about going airline to get hired on with a major? I have almost 1400 jet PIC (4600 TT)

I guess I should also say that I have some people that would give me internal recs for several different majors.