Hard Landing.. will affect Career?
 

I am a Private Pilot training for my Instrument and Commercial. Long story short, I made a poirpoised landing coming back to my home airport a couple days ago. I was renting the place to time-build, the owner said repairs would be about $20K. Insurance will take care of this, however, the owner told be he would file a report with FAA/NTSB. My questions are:

1. Will a "accident" report like this hurt my chances in the regionals/majors?

2. The owner was talking about the possibility of a 709 RIDE. Whats the possibility of this happening and will that affect my chances with a 121/135 carrier?

3. Is there any way to expunge records in the future?

Thanks.

1) Probably not. Things like this are pretty common at the PPL level. You're still learning.
2) 709 ride is a possibility. Again, not really a big deal.
3) no. Your record will follow you around and you will need to be truthful on job applications. Don't sweat it, though, something like this makes a good story about how you learned from your mistakes. Don't make it a habit, though.

First off, based on the information your provided it doesn't sound like it's an actual defined "aircraft accident" therefore notification to the FAA may not be required.

Look up CFR Part 830, subpart A definition of an "Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage. For purposes of this part, the definition of “aircraft accident” includes “unmanned aircraft accident,” as defined herein.

With that said, define "Substantial damage." Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component. Engine failure or damage limited to an engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairings or cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric, ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips are not considered “substantial damage” for the purpose of this part.

So with that said, was the damage to the landing gear resulting in $20000 worth of damage, if so it wouldn't be defined as a "accident." The limit of damages for Immediate notification according to Subpart B is $25000 (to include materials and labor). Therefore it's not an immediate reportable event as long as the damages truly are $20k.

Now as far as any ride you may have to take, I don't know. But from the information you provided it doesn't sound like a "aircraft accident" according the CFR Part 830.

I forgot to mention but I would recommend looking at FAR 91.25 and seeing if you should fill out the NASA form. I'm not sure if it is applicable in this case but it's something you might want to look into.

ASRS - Aviation Safety Reporting System

This. If you can help it, dont let them report it to the faa. Just insurance im sure. Like said above, damage to props, and gear do not count as substantial damage. Only things that affect its airworthiness. Meaning, if you throw it off the grand canyon, will it glide the same as before? (Bent prop and damaged gear aside of course) basically structure, controls surfaces, and airfoils. Everything else should not not count towards a mandatory reporting.

Legally speaking, you nor the fbo who owns it should have to report it. For insurance im sure something needs to be reported, but to the FAA including your information no.

Maybe the FBO is just ****ed off and wants u in trouble for bending their metal? They could also have there own company protocols in place, but i dint see why that would include reporting something thats not mandatory...

Re:
 

Thanks for all ya'lls replies. To give ya'll some information:

The owner said that the prop, the nose gear and right main gear, and a portion of the wing spars needed replacement. He also mentioned a Tear-down of the the engine as well as sending the gearbox off to be inspected.

I just did a ASRS report.

Interesting info. Maybe I can talk the owner out of it. he told me that I have two options. If I file insurance, He will file. Or if I pay out of pocket, he will not file.

Something fishy there. He's blackmailing you.

Either it's mandatory reportable or it's not. Doesn't matter who pays.

Gear, prop, engine teardown are not reportable.

Wing spars probably are.

IMHO don't fall for this blackmail. Let their insurance handle it. If they report it, so be it, it will NOT ruin your career, just a little extra hassle. Nothing worth paying $20k out of pocket for.

I would wash my hands with the entire place IF you had that option. But thats just me.

What the firewall bent? That qualifies as "reportable" due to damage.

Here's an article to read.

When Bad Things Happen to Good Pilots | Flying Magazine

Youre thinking exactly as I am. But here's the issue. He already told me he wont sue me for Loss of Revenue. If I go tell him all this ya'll good men are saying about this incident being unreportable to NTSB, he might ****** me over and sue me for LOR. If, that's IF he reports it to FAA/NTSB, will they follow through with it? Or will they interpret Part 830 and dismiss the case?

And if he does not file, will Insurance will on his behalf?

The FAA WILL investigate an occurrence, incident or accident to see if there are any violations of 14 CFR, even if they are not related at all to the original occurrence/situation (like airplane had an invalid registration). That's not due to over-staffing or bloated FSDOs, it's just the responsibility as the regulating and certificating entity. A pilot doesn't need to go "telling the FAA" about everything they do, the reporting requirements are in 49 CFR 830 for the NTSB, but the FAA retains the ability to look at records and documents and has a responsibility to ensure people are out there operating safe and by the regulations. Obviously the FAA "wants" to know of anything that happens to determine whether the certificate holder should continue to hold that certificate, whether or not there are safety concerns with the aircraft being used or how it was used, and whether or not the operations being conducted were "safe". These are responsibilities of the FAA. Keep in mind there are "eyes" out there in many places. Not looking to "catch" anyone, just looking to ensure the above.

That "6 suits" part of the article is pure conjecture/fiction. There is usually only one person assigned to an accident or incident, and most of the time they do it alone, sometimes all from the office and just using an inspector out in the field to collect some data if they are already there. Two is the most I've ever seen at one site at one time, unless it was a big passenger aircraft, like 20 seats or more. It's rare for inspectors to travel to a site unless it's very significant or they are very close, again, much is done from the office. Photos are often shared from the insurance company or NTSB. There's usually so much other work going on that tasking 6 people to gather data that can be done by one or two people just doesn't happen.

Now, there is a potential issue here, it sounds like the pilot has learned that the wing spars were damaged. This is reportable to the NTSB under 830.5 and 830.2 (which defines substantial damage). Most of the time the NTSB will just want to collect some statements and information over the phone. Sometimes after contacting them they will tell you they are not interested in the incident/accident at all and will not classify it as such, even though it meets the technical definition of an "accident". The FAA doesn't have any powers or enforcement authority regarding the reporting of accidents, that lies with the NTSB. It does sound like this may be reportable, which to me means it is until you are told otherwise by the NTSB.

I hope I can make as much money as the article says I make! It's way, way off. The "salary" quoted is for GS-14 (not 13 or 12) step 7 or 8 or so...I've read this article before of course, but these kind of obvious liberties with facts and the exaggerations don't help anyone. I will readily admit that pilots should know a LOT more about how the FAA works, it's responsibilities, how to ensure a fair outcome when anything happens, and so on. Very few people are usually interested in this or teach this unfortunately. Hopefully as with other industries and subjects, the internet and other medias will help to encourage and enable pilots to do this in the future.

You are way overthinking this and letting yourself think that you need to wheel and deal to get the best outcome. You need to relax. He wants to report it? Fine. He may have a legal obligation to do so. And trust me, you want to approach this by the book.

By the book means not cutting some short of shady "deal" trying to protect your record. NOT worth it. Having a bungled landing on your record as a PPL is not going to make a dent in your employability down the road.

Edit: keep in mind the mandatory reporting elements of 830.5 fall upon the *operator* of the aircraft. Which has a specific legal meaning and is not you, Joe Rental Pilot. It's the guy who has operational control, in this case the fellow renting you the aircraft. He's the one who knows specifically what damage was done and it's his responsibility to report if it meets the definition. Not really your concern or even something you should be asking too many questions about.

Your job is to say, sorry I screwed up. Take your lumps, if any. Let the owner and insurance company deal with it. It's their problem now, not yours. If the FAA or NTSB wants to talk to you about it, be honest but no need to volunteer information not requested.

I was you back in 1983. 80 total hours. Porpoised. Flat nose tire. Broken runway light. Towered airport. Certified letter some time later from the FAA advising me of a 609, now 709 review. Bummer!!!! Appointment at a FSDO with an inspector later that summer. With my ticket on the line, was it scary? Yeah. I passed.

Go up with a seasoned instructor, like I did, to critique your landings. Like me, that was where the incident occurred so that is what they will be checking. Sorry to hear. :(

'GS-12s and 13s an an AVERGAE salary of $130,000'
:eek::confused:

Hardly.
Is it that hard to Google GS salaries/pay rates?

The article contains some important points and much flair.
And Martha should know better.

Sorry to hear you having to go thru this situation. The most important thing you did was file an ASRS report. The majority of the info above is mostly correct and excellent advise. I personally would retain counsel (aviation experience) to better inform you so that you are not going thru this alone and with out proper information. I do wish you the best of luck and don't let it get you down. We all have "challenges" to our aviation careers that we have to overcome. You will come out of this a better pilot and, more importantly, a better person.

Thanks everyone. What are the chances the flight schools insurance will subrogate me? The owner said it was not likely due because this is pilot error, not negligence. My Non Owned Ins is $5K to cover their deductible of 5K, and their Ins will take care of everything from there.

KF5OVP- Is your name Eric? Is KF5OVP a ham radio Callsign issued to you by the FCC? If so, it's not an anonymous screen name.

Recommend that you heed the advice given by several other posters and at least consider reporting this to the NTSB. Failure to report ( if it is required per NTSB 830,) is definitely not recommended.

Playing the "what if" game with the aircraft owner/flight school is not a good use of your time. You have no control over what the other parties will or will not do.

You paid a lot of money to earn your certificate. Think about what you need to do to keep your pilot certificate in your pocket!

I would also recommend spending some time this weekend writing a written statement about the event. Include details such as final approach speed, descent rate, wind speed, anything you remember. Keep it to yourself, but have it available just in case it is requested by either an investigative agency OR insurance company. The more time passes since the incident, the less you will remember.

Highly recommend you sign up with AOPA Legal plan. Well worth the extra piece of mind.

Lastly, I am glad that nobody got hurt. That is what is most important here.

V/R

This is good advice. There are plenty of things (accidents, violations, etc) that are investigated where a 709 is not asked for. One of the biggest reasons in these cases is that the information above is provided and no one is left wondering "well, did this person just mess up because they don't know how to fly/don't understand what happened/have no control"? Try to turn this into a positive. Sure, it won't be a very "positive" in the sense that you have to pay a deductible and there's a ****ed-off FBO owner, but use it as a reason and a means to get better at landing and make it one of your strongest points. I started out weak with landings, with my private pilot instructor giving me great advice such as "pull the power when it 'looks good'", so throughout my private and instrument I really didn't understand landings or do them all that well. When one did go well, I had no idea why. So I made it my goal to analyze landings and understand what happened and why they worked, none of the pitch-for-airspeed stuff that results in wildly variable approach paths or pretending that you "stall" when you land, just really getting into it and understanding the aerodynamics and why it works when it works and why it doesn't when it doesn't.

If you approach a reexamination like this, own up to it, have the mindset that you want to improve this aspect of your flying and understanding, you will impress the inspector and a 709 will be a trivial thing. You only have to "meet the standard" in the 709 and the landings don't have to be perfect of course. If you explain it like this to anyone in the future, they will probably be impressed, rather than think negatively of you. A 709 ride, assuming you pass, is not likely to affect your career in any way. The 8710 form gets sent to OKC and says you passed a reexamination. It's not a violation or anything like that, which is what the airlines look for via the PRIA requests.

From the Pilot's Record Improvement Act Advisory Circular:

and from another part of the same document:

So the short answer is no, a 709, assuming you pass, will not be included in a PRIA search, unless you fail and your certificate is downgraded/taken away, which constitutes a failed check and a notice of disapproval is issued. In that case, according to the note, if the procedures are followed, an employer could find out about it. Failing a 709 is statistically very rare. Again, if you turn this into a strength, it would be a good story to share at any pilot job interview, and that would "get it out of the way" too.

What he said.

Look up the NTSB rules and figure out exactly who is RESPONSIBLE for reporting this. If it's the pilot, you need to determine the exact scope of the damages and whether it will meet the reporting threshold. Sounds like it's on the borderline, you may need to err on the conservative side and just report it.

There's nothing that prevents the owner from reporting the incident if he wants to...whether any action is taken depends on the actual damages, which may not be known until the repairs are complete.

It's not worth 20K out of your own pocket because this is almost insignificant at the PPL level and you don't want to lie to airlines anyway.

Good advise here. I do disagree that this is an insignificant event however. You will need to treat this as a serious mistake during an interview and be fully prepared to explain what happened and how you learned from it. Also you will need to be squeaky clean from here on out, add a busted check ride to your resume you will have a difficult time finding employment.

Not the end of the world but less than ideal. Just my 2 cents. Good luck.