Bhounddog

I always wanted to be a pilot but never pursued my calling because of the previous economics. Having said that, I have recently read numerous articles about how there is a demand for new pilots. I also discussed the pilot shortage with two friends who are pilots at major airlines and they both encourage me to become a pilot.

Yet, on this forum, everyone seems very negative about pilot careers…

Please help me understand:
-Why are so many pilots on this forum so much more cynical than my pilot friends who are optimistic?
-Is there really a pilot shortage?
-How long do you think it would take to get from ZERO to FO at a regional in this current economic environment?
-How much does a FO at a regional make now? One of my pilot friends showed me a pay schedule in which first year FO regional pay is $70 p/h. Is $70 p/h realistic?
-Once FO at a regional, how long do you think it would take to advance to captain at regional in this economic environment?
-Once captain at a regional, how long would it take to get a job at a major airline in this economic environment?

If you were in my shoes, what would you do? My criteria:
-36 y/o, married, one child.
-To a point, my wife is supportive of me becoming a pilot. She has a good job and works from home (so we can move around the US if need be). I’ll ultimately want to have a $50K+ income within 3 years to continue our current lifestyle.
-I currently have a job in digital marketing with a $70K+ income. I like my job for now but it’s not something I want to do when I’m 45+.
-Overall, I look at the payoff of becoming a pilot to be when I’m 46+ and (hopefully) work for a major and have a good quality of life and $100K+ income and a job I will enjoy until I retire at 65. Is this realistic?

I appreciate your insight. Thank you in advance.

Sliceback

Do you have a four year degree? Right now that's a 99% requirement.
A year to get your licenses if you do it full time.
Then 18 months of flight instructing at $25K(?) a year.
Then you'd have the 1500 hrs to get hired by a regional(actually more like 1430 since training time counts).
Starting regional pay is 35-50K with no bonuses right now. Second year pay might be less without the signing bonus.
Three to four year upgrade 3-4 years from now? At the current pay rates you'd make 60-75K with annual increases.
Avg civilian hired at DL had 7600 TT and 4100 PIC. It will take you about ten years from today to reach those numbers.
Averages might come down as demand strains the supply chain.
Big 4 new hires make about 70K their first year, 105K or more in yr 2, 125K year 3, etc.
You'd upgrade at the junior base around 57-58 yrs old. Currently that's 205K or more.
Retire at 65.

Still interested? How do you pay for training? Can you do it full time? Or part time at a very high rate? The quicker you get on the timeline the more time you add at the end when you'll be making $250K or more.

Glamour life? Think the wife will enjoy you being gone perhaps 20-24 days a month while you commute to a regional airline job? At the major, if you live in base, it will be more 8-12 nights per month. Commuting could add another 4-8 nights per month.

Still interested???

The upside is it's a 'walk away' job. Had this discussion with the wife this morning. No reports, no staff meetings, no projects, no deadlines, almost nothing comes home. Sometimes the Captains have some reports to fill out but that's infrequent.
Do you have a four year degree? Right now that's a 99% requirement.
A year to get your licenses if you do it full time.
Then 18 months of flight instructing at $25K(?) a year.
Then you'd have the 1500 hrs to get hired by a regional(actually more like 1430 since training time counts).
Starting regional pay is 35-50K with no bonuses right now. Second year pay might be less without the signing bonus.
Three to four year upgrade 3-4 years from now? At the current pay rates you'd make 60-75K with annual increases.
Avg civilian hired at DL had 7600 TT and 4100 PIC. It will take you about ten years from today to reach those numbers.
Averages might come down as demand strains the supply chain.
Big 4 new hires make about 70K their first year, 105K or more in yr 2, 125K year 3, etc.
You'd upgrade at the junior base around 57-58 yrs old. Currently that's 205K or more.
Retire at 65.

Still interested? How do you pay for training? Can you do it full time? Or part time at a very high rate? The quicker you get on the timeline the more time you add at the end when you'll be making $250K or more.

Glamour life? Think the wife will enjoy you being gone perhaps 20-24 days a month while you commute to a regional airline job? At the major, if you live in base, it will be more 8-12 nights per month. Commuting could add another 4-8 nights per month.

Still interested???

The upside is it's a 'walk away' job. Had this discussion with the wife this morning. No reports, no staff meetings, no projects, no deadlines, almost nothing comes home. Sometimes the Captains have some reports to fill out but that's infrequent.

And none of this, especially the pay, is guaranteed. But it's the best hiring future ever based on the retirement bubble.

HeWhoRazethAll

I can answer a few questions...just based on the experiences of SEVERAL friends who are in similar situations to you (one of them has 4 kids and is about to upgrade at skywest)

I literally just flew a 4 day trip with a 50-year old Captain who changed careers at 40. NO flying experience whatsoever before that. He has an upbeat attitude, loves his job; and his wife has been a huge encouragement to him during the "lost decade". (He was an A&P for a major airline and was laid off after 9/11)

I agree with most things sliceback said.

IF YOU WERE EVER GOING TO DO IT, now is the best environment since probably the seventies.

Zero to FO at a regional? Two years (if you do one of the zero-hero programs), maybe less. Most regionals, with the exception of Compass, Skywest, Horizon are CLAMORING for pilots to the point that they are not very selective. Get 1500 hours, you'll get hired.

Why are the guys on this forum cynical? Why is the sky blue? It's a forum, most guys that really invest a lot of time on here have an ax to grind, whether with their company, other pilots, or the industry in general.

Upgrade times vary from 18 months to 7 years depending on the regional. Choose accordingly. Everything is give and take. The regionals with major airline flows have much slower movement.

I only have 2100 hours now, almost all of it is Turbine and I have 500 Turbine PIC. I have interviews in the next few months with airlines that sell their own tickets, just not with the big 4...even with relatively low time. My regional does not have a flow, but the upgrade is around a year.

Best part of the job: walk away. You go to work, you fly, you go home; and very rarely interact with management of any kind. I like that.

I currently command a schedule that gives me about 16 days off, with every weekend or holiday that I want. Your mileage will certainly vary, but that's the environment right now.

If you want to do it, there is NO time like the present. You just need to understand that the next 4 years will be long, grueling, thin years.

heisjj

Do flow through agreements bypass this? Sorry not the OP but interested for my own situation.

Sliceback

Yes. It bypasses the degree requirement.
IMO it's the best choice for a non degree candidate.

Bhounddog

Thank you for insightful replies. Your feedback is very helpful.

To answer questions so far:
-I have a bachelors degree from a 4 year university.
-Financials: My wife and I have both worked full time since graduating college and have some money saved. We don’t have a ton of money by any means and need to be wise with our investment allocation. Having said that, we could swing a $50K-$75K investment in flight training if it makes financial sense. Like any investment, we’ll crunch the numbers and move forward only if we think there is a strong likelihood of a healthy return on investment.
-I am interested in becoming a pilot to win the long game and do not expect a glamorous lifestyle. I am also willing to tolerate a relatively poor lifestyle (to a point, I don’t want to live in poverty and would prefer to spend half the month with my family) for the first 10 years. To me (and correct me if my perceptions are inaccurate) the payoff will be between the ages of 46+ - 65 when I’m doing a job I want to be doing and making a 6 figure income. I like the idea of having my highest earning years be in my 50s and 60s. On my current career path (digital marketing), most people max out in their 40s and people in their 50s are considered old and in the way.

Having said all that, I’m a strong advocate of the saying “strong views loosely held” so please speak up if you think my views are not inline with reality. Feel free to share any statistics or anecdotal examples that are not inline with my expectations. Feel free to share any other hidden pitfalls of a pilot career.

Follow up questions:
-Is it feasible to do pilot training part time? In other words, could I keep some of the responsibilities (and income) of my current day job and train at night? Or, is it best to go "all in" in a zero to hero program?
-If I choose to be an instructor to get my 1,500 hours, are instructor hours flexible? In other words, could I retain some responsibility and income from my current job?
-I live in Denver and would prefer to do my training in the Denver area. Does anyone have suggestions of a good flight school in Denver?
-Also regarding Denver, are there regional FO job options in which I wouldn't need to commute? Or, do you think I would need to commute in order to get a good regional FO job?

rickair7777

You can do part time if that makes financial, but will want to train at least 2-3 times/week to avoid regression and having to repeat training (two steps forward, one step back). You'll also want to be able to devote time to studying/preparation in between flying lessons.

Yes, although that's somewhat dependent on the employer.


At least two regionals have DEN pilot bases.

BeechPilot33

Bhound,

You will want to fly 2-3 times per week and study when your not flying. Takes a lot of time to study and chair fly. (going through procedures at your desk)

Your checkrides are important and will be permanently on your record; the major airlines will ask if you failed any. So who you (and your instructor) choose as an examiner becomes important in the long-run. If you come out with a clean record you might get the job first before a guy who has a failure(s)

It doesn't matter what flight school you go to; pick the one with the best rates. You want an instructor that just started or is an older guy that isn't going to the airlines. They will devote more time to your training and won't have 3 different instructors.

When your a CFI it's usually a fulltime job but some companies will hire part timers. The faster you can get 1500 hours the faster you can get on with a regional. Oh yeah, don't get a DUI, speeding tickets, and volunteer if you can outside of flying - looks good on the resume.

Sliceback

Fre opinions - worth every penny you pay for it. Read a bunch and try and figure out what makes sense and particularly what makes sense for you.

google 'Denver flight schools'. Check them out.

Right now the average new hire has 5000-8000 hrs. That's 6-10 years if you start now. Going to an airline with a flow through agreement means you're almost guaranteed a job (right now it's 100%, future is rarely 100%).

Each additional year you gain by getting hired sooner is worth $250-300K. That's not counting the money you earn, for years, from being 600-1000 numbers more senior along with better bidding and vacation and holiday schedules.

So that's the reason for the desire to get hired sooner. You said you're making $70K. If you can get your ratings in a year by going full time vs two (?) years part time you'll be $200-300K, or more, ahead.

None of this is guaranteed. But that's the payoff if it works.

Flight training at night? Most of the training requires day time. Instrument flying can be done at night. Some of the cross country flights can be done at night. But most of the flight training requires day VFR weather.

Can you work while training? Sure, the training will just take more time. The reality is you maintain more current cash flow that has a long term cost. But food and housing isn't some abstract issue, you have to support your family at the same time.

You can train every weekend and do a couple more flights mid week. It will be a grind. Family, kids, wife, job, studying, and then flying is a tough road. It's possible, it's just tough.

Failing check rides can happen. If you have a bunch of them it might impact you're career advancement.

There's the possibility of working and CFI'ing at the same time. But would your work be 9-5? When would you fly with your students, especially in the winter? Again, it's just delaying your race to 1500 hrs (regional job) and which point your flight hours will increase by 700-900 hrs a year. That will be the path towards eventually gaining the experience to apply for a major airline.

Which regional to apply to? That's at least two years away. You'll have time to figure out which path to take. Personally I'd recommend a WO (wholly owned) or any other regional airline that has a guaranteed flow through agreement. While working there nothing prevents you from getting hired OTS (Off The Street) at an airline other than the airline you have the flow agreement with.

waflyboy

I'll suggest that you shouldn't get terribly wrapped around the idea making this a wholly financial decision. If you want to change careers, there are probably other fields to explore that offer entry into a high paying job a lot sooner and with less investment than becoming a pilot.

There is also a degree of risk that is difficult to quantify in such an analysis. The industry has been riddled with bankruptcies, furloughs, and consolidations that have resulted in years of lost income and millions lost in retirement funds. Sure, you can get that in any industry - but perhaps more so in this industry.

Don't sell this to yourself (or your wife) as a good financial decision - even if after a sound analysis, it appears to be. I've found the people who got into this job with such expectations are the hardest to spend four days with when things aren't working out as planned. There are plenty of other (much better) reasons to get into this line of work, and it sounds like you have a few.

As already mentioned, you certainly can do this. But seniority is the primary benchmark of security and quality of life in this business. And in the current fast-moving environment, even a week of seniority makes a difference.

Working on your flying full-time, you can probably get all of your ratings and become a flight instructor about a year after you start. Alternately, flying three days a week (as others have suggested), it might take two years. (Hard to say, exactly.) The easy part is figuring out whether it's financially worth it to forsake a year of salary to get it done in half the time. (Hence, getting to a major airline salary a year sooner.) The hard part is knowing what that extra year of seniority will be worth when things get tough again.

Just food for thought. I'm not trying to deter you, necessarily. Just know that you have to be willing to accept a lot of uncertainty in this career.

I'm also a career changer, and I'd much rather be a flyer for as long as I have the opportunity to do so.