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Old 10-19-2018, 01:14 PM   #111  
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^^ Not a whole lot the pilot group (Atlas) can really do. They wonít be released to strike anytime soon. Negotiations can take years to finish. Add to that, the company is waiting for results on wheather to Arbitrate or not. If the company wins the lawsuit on Arbitration, the contract the pilots will get come from the Arbitrator. No vote from pilot group.
We should know more how things may turn out early next year.
As for a contract, maybe 2020/2021.
Anything close to UPS or Purple? No.
I truly hate to hear this. I do hope that the company loses the arbitration suit. And the pilots are able to vote on an outstanding contract.
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Old 10-19-2018, 07:29 PM   #112  
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Iíd like to think positive about SAI and Atlasí future. And Iím sure Iím just being naive and ignorant. But, doesnít most history show a leapfrog effect on CBAís? Couldnít the SAI and Atlas Mecís, along with the full support of each pilot group go to the negotiating table with a contract similar to purple or brown? Do the pilots not have the upper hand in todayís industry? Isnít there something that can be done to get the company to see that the pilot groups only want a fair, industry leading contract? Itís business right? So when it becomes non-profitable to be a pilot for them you leave to where there is a profit to be made. They would.
If the company is truly dragging their knuckles on negotiations then the pilot groups must take action to force their hand to sign an acceptable contract or pull the plug. $#)+ or get off the pot.
Atlas and SAI are Teamsters with an EXCO (ALPA has the MEC's). And they work well together.

Pilots ARE leaving: about 200 in the last year alone - more than 10%. Been happening for several years, now.

The problem is the old anti-union contract that was originally forced on us back in the early 2000's. Bad merger language allowed the company to avoid having to sign a new contract - ever - as long as they purchased a new airline, no matter how small, every time the current contract came up for ratification.

Sucks.
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Old 10-23-2018, 01:18 AM   #113  
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Atlas and SAI are Teamsters with an EXCO (ALPA has the MEC's). And they work well together.

Pilots ARE leaving: about 200 in the last year alone - more than 10%. Been happening for several years, now.

The problem is the old anti-union contract that was originally forced on us back in the early 2000's. Bad merger language allowed the company to avoid having to sign a new contract - ever - as long as they purchased a new airline, no matter how small, every time the current contract came up for ratification.

Sucks.
I agree. It sucks.

Dealing with the union and the company locking up after we lost two lawsuits. One to be turned back to arbitration on the merger in one case and getting caught on a work action we telegraphed coming despite internal warnings among our own. Not the best leadership. Smells of the Polar/Atlas merger all over again. Should we be surprised?

The EXCO Chair now has extended his stay by getting an extra year and a half payout for his sub-level services past his retirement that he declared himself leader in chief despite 1224 IBT bylaw.

You can look that violation up under section 13 versus his announcements to the membership on Feb 13. *

Last edited by UAL T38 Phlyer; 10-23-2018 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 10-23-2018, 06:13 AM   #114  
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I agree. It sucks.

Dealing with the union and the company locking up after we lost two lawsuits. One to be turned back to arbitration on the merger in one case and getting caught on a work action we telegraphed coming despite internal warnings among our own. Not the best leadership. Smells of the Polar/Atlas merger all over again. Should we be surprised?

The EXCO Chair now has extended his stay by getting an extra year and a half payout for his sub-level services past his retirement that he declared himself leader in chief despite 1224 IBT bylaw.

You can look that violation up under section 13 versus his announcements to the membership on Feb 13. *.
I agree it sucks.

I disagree we "got caught...telegraphing...a work action."

The statistician hired by the company to collect "data" that was used against us, admitted under oath he started his collection late in 2015. The merger games didn't begin until early 2016. The company was clearly anticipating something, anything, in order to drag this all out as long as they could. We could have all been company w#0res and the company STILL would have sued us. That's in their playbook.

I happen to think the current ExCo chair is the right person for this job. Most guys willing to do the job either get snowed (wined and dined by the company) or suck up and get off by "working with" company executives. We need a fighter, and you clearly have a different opinion, which is fine, but you can't tell me the ExCo chair isn't fighting. In fact, he'll never enjoy any gain or benefit when this fight is finally over.

Last edited by UAL T38 Phlyer; 10-23-2018 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 10-23-2018, 06:37 AM   #115  
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I agree it sucks.

I disagree we "got caught...telegraphing...a work action."

The statistician hired by the company to collect "data" that was used against us, admitted under oath he started his collection late in 2015. The merger games didn't begin until early 2016. The company was clearly anticipating something, anything, in order to drag this all out as long as they could. We could have all been company w#0res and the company STILL would have sued us. That's in their playbook.

I happen to think the current ExCo chair is the right person for this job. Most guys willing to do the job either get snowed (wined and dined by the company) or suck up and get off by "working with" company executives. We need a fighter, and you clearly have a different opinion, which is fine, but you can't tell me the ExCo chair isn't fighting. In fact, he'll never enjoy any gain or benefit when this fight is finally over.
Agree with zerozero.

sudden, what would you be doing differently? What does your intimate knowledge of the situation tell you that would be the best course of action? Will you be running for office?
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Old 10-25-2018, 09:59 PM   #116  
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I agree it sucks.

I disagree we "got caught...telegraphing...a work action."

I happen to think the current ExCo chair is the right person for this job. Most guys willing to do the job either get snowed (wined and dined by the company) or suck up and get off by "working with" company executives. We need a fighter, and you clearly have a different opinion, which is fine, but you can't tell me the ExCo chair isn't fighting. In fact, he'll never enjoy any gain or benefit when this fight is finally over.
He is a fighter if you pledge allegiance to him and his paycheck, otherwise he will burn everyone in his way despite the memberships wishes and dues paying him. I wish otherwise, but his actions prove more than words leaving me and my crew hanging out to dry once he heard my name on the emergency line..

I could go on, but the last few IBT reports pretty well sum up as Atlas 1224 is well taken care of compared to past admins.

As an added note, we don't need to decertify IBT. As dirty as we get internally, it's better than ALPA and their infrastructure.

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Agree with zerozero.

sudden, what would you be doing differently? What does your intimate knowledge of the situation tell you that would be the best course of action? Will you be running for office?
I have a lot. Feel free to PM me. Since the union has closed down the internal union web forums and 1224 local having to take up the slake, I don't want to give Atlas any more leverage. You know, the site BK has tried to shut down among the membership vs using the "the facebook page" of no one claims as their own..

Get real, that would stand up in court for three minutes.
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Old 10-26-2018, 06:00 AM   #117  
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....
As an added note, we don't need to decertify IBT. As dirty as we get internally, it's better than ALPA and their infrastructure.
....
If the only exposure I had of ALPA was from my days at the regional, I would agree with you.
Being at K4, got to see what ALPA is really like, and you are delusional if you think a truck driving union has better resources available to pilots.
What I think really is going on is that Atlas enjoys being a big fish in a small pond, rather than being a small fish in the Pacific ocean.
With that said, I hope you guys get your new contract and you get what you want, near Fed Ex rates.
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Old 10-26-2018, 06:32 AM   #118  
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If the only exposure I had of ALPA was from my days at the regional, I would agree with you.
Being at K4, got to see what ALPA is really like, and you are delusional if you think a truck driving union has better resources available to pilots.
What I think really is going on is that Atlas enjoys being a big fish in a small pond, rather than being a small fish in the Pacific ocean.
With that said, I hope you guys get your new contract and you get what you want, near Fed Ex rates.
Obviously!

Who wouldn't?

What you don't point out, and apparently didn't learn in the regionals is that unless you're FedEx, DAL or UAL you're basically fish food in the Pacific Ocean.

No thanks.

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Old 10-26-2018, 09:09 AM   #119  
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If the only exposure I had of ALPA was from my days at the regional, I would agree with you.
Being at K4, got to see what ALPA is really like, and you are delusional if you think a truck driving union has better resources available to pilots.
What I think really is going on is that Atlas enjoys being a big fish in a small pond, rather than being a small fish in the Pacific ocean.
With that said, I hope you guys get your new contract and you get what you want, near Fed Ex rates.
I had 14 years under ALPA at my previous ACMI carrier and saw first hand just how they treat any airline other than Delta, FedEx, and United. A big fish in a small pond is much better than fish food in the ocean.

But it is difficult to clearly have a better picture of ALPA since they took over at K4, what, just about a year ago. And don't forget that it is a Teamster contract you are operating under.

I hope we get the mother of all contracts, too. I believe that a rising tide lifts all ships. And had K4 stayed under the Teamster banner, they would be in the same harbor as the rest of the DHL/Amazon ACMI carriers and make this a better, stronger collective team of pilot groups. I think it was a mistake and an insult for K4 to abandon Teamster after the contract, but the pilot group fell for the rantings of a few malcontents and their mis-information agenda.

We at Atlas are doing our best to forge a new contract under very difficult legal constraints and the rantings of the few who spout anti union/anti EXCO propaganda here need to be ignored. As we have seen, they have nothing constructive to add and only like to hear their own voices.
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Old 10-26-2018, 11:03 AM   #120  
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I had 14 years under ALPA at my previous ACMI carrier and saw first hand just how they treat any airline other than Delta, FedEx, and United. A big fish in a small pond is much better than fish food in the ocean.

But it is difficult to clearly have a better picture of ALPA since they took over at K4, what, just about a year ago. And don't forget that it is a Teamster contract you are operating under.

I hope we get the mother of all contracts, too. I believe that a rising tide lifts all ships. And had K4 stayed under the Teamster banner, they would be in the same harbor as the rest of the DHL/Amazon ACMI carriers and make this a better, stronger collective team of pilot groups. I think it was a mistake and an insult for K4 to abandon Teamster after the contract, but the pilot group fell for the rantings of a few malcontents and their mis-information agenda.

We at Atlas are doing our best to forge a new contract under very difficult legal constraints and the rantings of the few who spout anti union/anti EXCO propaganda here need to be ignored. As we have seen, they have nothing constructive to add and only like to hear their own voices.
I was right there with you for 14 years
do you remember when Randy Babbitt wrote us a check for a cool million for SPC?
that doesn't sound like lack of support to me
wanna know what we got from teamsters during negotiations - ZERO - we even had to pay for our lawyer - boy that was money down a hole

As far as K4 going to ALPA - I can tell you as one who was deep inside the K4 1224 leadership, and same for ALPA today - 1224 and APA are a complete sh!t show in comparison. YMMV but that's what I have seen and see today

as far as the fish go - what your saying is because atlas is the big fish the little fish can go to he!! - got it
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