ATI QOL and more
04-21-2018, 05:37 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Left, right & center
Posts: 769
Originally Posted by dynap09
ABX pilots had a strike with nearly no coordination with others. Was also ruled illegal or blocked by a judge. Some ATI pilots flew during this period based on their union views on strike.
I think issue strike was about (growth was too much with staffing) has been resolved as ABX has basically stopped adding flying so pilots did succeed there.
I think issue strike was about (growth was too much with staffing) has been resolved as ABX has basically stopped adding flying so pilots did succeed there.
The contentious relationship between ABX pilots and management goes way back. It was not helped when ABX management refused to bring back a number of furloughed pilots in the face of rapid growth as a result of the Amazon contract (well, OK, management proposed that they be brought back, but at third or fourth year pay when they were due much more than that), instead waiting until they dropped off of the seniority list with the expiration of their recall rights, and only then trying to hire enough to catch up with proper staffing levels.
In the meantime, there was a lot of junior manning going on. Pilots were making ridiculous amounts of money, but they also weren't living much of a life outside of work. They were due compensatory days off, but were often not able to use them, as they would be immediately junior manned as soon as they scheduled those days, earning them back, scheduling them, and getting junior manned in an endless cycle. Then a memo came down from management changing the way those days could be scheduled in a way that the union considered to be a status quo violation of the contract. That was one of the three issues.
Going along with the junior manning, some pilots were not allowed vacation time. That was the second issue.
The third was the refusal by the company to implement a solution to a day/night transition problem that the union had worked out with the scheduling manager.
Also be aware that the company has in the past insisted that pilots should be forced to bid open flying (even though the contract plainly says that pilots are not required to bid open flying) and bid back vacation days, going so far as to try to get a court order to make them do that, and got smacked down by the court each time they tried.
Now consider that when the strike occurred and the company asked a judge to force the pilots back to work, two of the three items had magically been resolved before they even set foot in the courtroom. The third was resolved a few months later, resulting in some pilots getting some pretty big checks.
Do you think the company knew they were in the wrong? Now tell me the strike was "illegal" and unjustified.
ATI is a sister airline to ABX, one of the subsidiaries of ATSG. During the strike, some ATI pilots walked the picket line with ABX pilots, or made themselves unavailable to fly. Others, upon advice from ALPA that the strike wasn't a strike but rather "informational picketing", continued to fly. That's where the "scab" thing comes from.
As a result of the strike, and effectively as a reward to ATI for crossing the picket line (listen to the ATSG CEO's words in the earnings conference call a few months later) or perhaps as punishment to ABX for having the temerity to have a spine, all remaining aircraft for the Amazon contract went to ATI.
This certainly solved the growth vs. manning problem. Growth stopped immediately, as did hiring. But this was not the goal of ABX pilots. ABX pilots want to see the company grow as much as anyone else, but not at the expense of their lives and financial futures.
04-21-2018, 06:27 PM
#12
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,275
Originally Posted by Reactivity
If you're going to comment, please know what the heck you're talking about. I know that's a lot to ask in this low-SNR forum, but it would be nice if you'd at least try.
The contentious relationship between ABX pilots and management goes way back. It was not helped when ABX management refused to bring back a number of furloughed pilots in the face of rapid growth as a result of the Amazon contract (well, OK, management proposed that they be brought back, but at third or fourth year pay when they were due much more than that), instead waiting until they dropped off of the seniority list with the expiration of their recall rights, and only then trying to hire enough to catch up with proper staffing levels.
In the meantime, there was a lot of junior manning going on. Pilots were making ridiculous amounts of money, but they also weren't living much of a life outside of work. They were due compensatory days off, but were often not able to use them, as they would be immediately junior manned as soon as they scheduled those days, earning them back, scheduling them, and getting junior manned in an endless cycle. Then a memo came down from management changing the way those days could be scheduled in a way that the union considered to be a status quo violation of the contract. That was one of the three issues.
Going along with the junior manning, some pilots were not allowed vacation time. That was the second issue.
The third was the refusal by the company to implement a solution to a day/night transition problem that the union had worked out with the scheduling manager.
Also be aware that the company has in the past insisted that pilots should be forced to bid open flying (even though the contract plainly says that pilots are not required to bid open flying) and bid back vacation days, going so far as to try to get a court order to make them do that, and got smacked down by the court each time they tried.
Now consider that when the strike occurred and the company asked a judge to force the pilots back to work, two of the three items had magically been resolved before they even set foot in the courtroom. The third was resolved a few months later, resulting in some pilots getting some pretty big checks.
Do you think the company knew they were in the wrong? Now tell me the strike was "illegal" and unjustified.
ATI is a sister airline to ABX, one of the subsidiaries of ATSG. During the strike, some ATI pilots walked the picket line with ABX pilots, or made themselves unavailable to fly. Others, upon advice from ALPA that the strike wasn't a strike but rather "informational picketing", continued to fly. That's where the "scab" thing comes from.
As a result of the strike, and effectively as a reward to ATI for crossing the picket line (listen to the ATSG CEO's words in the earnings conference call a few months later) or perhaps as punishment to ABX for having the temerity to have a spine, all remaining aircraft for the Amazon contract went to ATI.
This certainly solved the growth vs. manning problem. Growth stopped immediately, as did hiring. But this was not the goal of ABX pilots. ABX pilots want to see the company grow as much as anyone else, but not at the expense of their lives and financial futures.
The contentious relationship between ABX pilots and management goes way back. It was not helped when ABX management refused to bring back a number of furloughed pilots in the face of rapid growth as a result of the Amazon contract (well, OK, management proposed that they be brought back, but at third or fourth year pay when they were due much more than that), instead waiting until they dropped off of the seniority list with the expiration of their recall rights, and only then trying to hire enough to catch up with proper staffing levels.
In the meantime, there was a lot of junior manning going on. Pilots were making ridiculous amounts of money, but they also weren't living much of a life outside of work. They were due compensatory days off, but were often not able to use them, as they would be immediately junior manned as soon as they scheduled those days, earning them back, scheduling them, and getting junior manned in an endless cycle. Then a memo came down from management changing the way those days could be scheduled in a way that the union considered to be a status quo violation of the contract. That was one of the three issues.
Going along with the junior manning, some pilots were not allowed vacation time. That was the second issue.
The third was the refusal by the company to implement a solution to a day/night transition problem that the union had worked out with the scheduling manager.
Also be aware that the company has in the past insisted that pilots should be forced to bid open flying (even though the contract plainly says that pilots are not required to bid open flying) and bid back vacation days, going so far as to try to get a court order to make them do that, and got smacked down by the court each time they tried.
Now consider that when the strike occurred and the company asked a judge to force the pilots back to work, two of the three items had magically been resolved before they even set foot in the courtroom. The third was resolved a few months later, resulting in some pilots getting some pretty big checks.
Do you think the company knew they were in the wrong? Now tell me the strike was "illegal" and unjustified.
ATI is a sister airline to ABX, one of the subsidiaries of ATSG. During the strike, some ATI pilots walked the picket line with ABX pilots, or made themselves unavailable to fly. Others, upon advice from ALPA that the strike wasn't a strike but rather "informational picketing", continued to fly. That's where the "scab" thing comes from.
As a result of the strike, and effectively as a reward to ATI for crossing the picket line (listen to the ATSG CEO's words in the earnings conference call a few months later) or perhaps as punishment to ABX for having the temerity to have a spine, all remaining aircraft for the Amazon contract went to ATI.
This certainly solved the growth vs. manning problem. Growth stopped immediately, as did hiring. But this was not the goal of ABX pilots. ABX pilots want to see the company grow as much as anyone else, but not at the expense of their lives and financial futures.
04-22-2018, 05:00 AM
#13
Polyester Pilot
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: 777 CA
Posts: 510
Originally Posted by Reactivity
If you're going to comment, please know what the heck you're talking about. I know that's a lot to ask in this low-SNR forum, but it would be nice if you'd at least try.
The contentious relationship between ABX pilots and management goes way back. It was not helped when ABX management refused to bring back a number of furloughed pilots in the face of rapid growth as a result of the Amazon contract (well, OK, management proposed that they be brought back, but at third or fourth year pay when they were due much more than that), instead waiting until they dropped off of the seniority list with the expiration of their recall rights, and only then trying to hire enough to catch up with proper staffing levels.
In the meantime, there was a lot of junior manning going on. Pilots were making ridiculous amounts of money, but they also weren't living much of a life outside of work. They were due compensatory days off, but were often not able to use them, as they would be immediately junior manned as soon as they scheduled those days, earning them back, scheduling them, and getting junior manned in an endless cycle. Then a memo came down from management changing the way those days could be scheduled in a way that the union considered to be a status quo violation of the contract. That was one of the three issues.
Going along with the junior manning, some pilots were not allowed vacation time. That was the second issue.
The third was the refusal by the company to implement a solution to a day/night transition problem that the union had worked out with the scheduling manager.
Also be aware that the company has in the past insisted that pilots should be forced to bid open flying (even though the contract plainly says that pilots are not required to bid open flying) and bid back vacation days, going so far as to try to get a court order to make them do that, and got smacked down by the court each time they tried.
Now consider that when the strike occurred and the company asked a judge to force the pilots back to work, two of the three items had magically been resolved before they even set foot in the courtroom. The third was resolved a few months later, resulting in some pilots getting some pretty big checks.
Do you think the company knew they were in the wrong? Now tell me the strike was "illegal" and unjustified.
ATI is a sister airline to ABX, one of the subsidiaries of ATSG. During the strike, some ATI pilots walked the picket line with ABX pilots, or made themselves unavailable to fly. Others, upon advice from ALPA that the strike wasn't a strike but rather "informational picketing", continued to fly. That's where the "scab" thing comes from.
As a result of the strike, and effectively as a reward to ATI for crossing the picket line (listen to the ATSG CEO's words in the earnings conference call a few months later) or perhaps as punishment to ABX for having the temerity to have a spine, all remaining aircraft for the Amazon contract went to ATI.
This certainly solved the growth vs. manning problem. Growth stopped immediately, as did hiring. But this was not the goal of ABX pilots. ABX pilots want to see the company grow as much as anyone else, but not at the expense of their lives and financial futures.
The contentious relationship between ABX pilots and management goes way back. It was not helped when ABX management refused to bring back a number of furloughed pilots in the face of rapid growth as a result of the Amazon contract (well, OK, management proposed that they be brought back, but at third or fourth year pay when they were due much more than that), instead waiting until they dropped off of the seniority list with the expiration of their recall rights, and only then trying to hire enough to catch up with proper staffing levels.
In the meantime, there was a lot of junior manning going on. Pilots were making ridiculous amounts of money, but they also weren't living much of a life outside of work. They were due compensatory days off, but were often not able to use them, as they would be immediately junior manned as soon as they scheduled those days, earning them back, scheduling them, and getting junior manned in an endless cycle. Then a memo came down from management changing the way those days could be scheduled in a way that the union considered to be a status quo violation of the contract. That was one of the three issues.
Going along with the junior manning, some pilots were not allowed vacation time. That was the second issue.
The third was the refusal by the company to implement a solution to a day/night transition problem that the union had worked out with the scheduling manager.
Also be aware that the company has in the past insisted that pilots should be forced to bid open flying (even though the contract plainly says that pilots are not required to bid open flying) and bid back vacation days, going so far as to try to get a court order to make them do that, and got smacked down by the court each time they tried.
Now consider that when the strike occurred and the company asked a judge to force the pilots back to work, two of the three items had magically been resolved before they even set foot in the courtroom. The third was resolved a few months later, resulting in some pilots getting some pretty big checks.
Do you think the company knew they were in the wrong? Now tell me the strike was "illegal" and unjustified.
ATI is a sister airline to ABX, one of the subsidiaries of ATSG. During the strike, some ATI pilots walked the picket line with ABX pilots, or made themselves unavailable to fly. Others, upon advice from ALPA that the strike wasn't a strike but rather "informational picketing", continued to fly. That's where the "scab" thing comes from.
As a result of the strike, and effectively as a reward to ATI for crossing the picket line (listen to the ATSG CEO's words in the earnings conference call a few months later) or perhaps as punishment to ABX for having the temerity to have a spine, all remaining aircraft for the Amazon contract went to ATI.
This certainly solved the growth vs. manning problem. Growth stopped immediately, as did hiring. But this was not the goal of ABX pilots. ABX pilots want to see the company grow as much as anyone else, but not at the expense of their lives and financial futures.
This is the most concise and well thought out explanation of what brought about the ABX strike I have ever read. New people join these threads every day and as time goes by many of them are unaware of what happened and why. The poster even dispassionately addresses the "scab" issue and why some use that term while not staking out a position on the subject. This ought to be a sticky at the top of every thread that discusses ATI/ABX together.
04-22-2018, 05:43 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 548
Originally Posted by dynap09
ABX pilots had a strike .................................................. .................................................. ......ATI pilots flew during this period .............................................
.............blah blah blah
Good luck - and you are certain to get some strong ABX views too
.............blah blah blah
Good luck - and you are certain to get some strong ABX views too
The STRONG views are not just from the ABX pilots, it is from every hard core Union airline.
04-24-2018, 03:44 AM
#20
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 31
Originally Posted by Reactivity
If you're going to comment, please know what the heck you're talking about. I know that's a lot to ask in this low-SNR forum, but it would be nice if you'd at least try.
The contentious relationship between ABX pilots and management goes way back. It was not helped when ABX management refused to bring back a number of furloughed pilots in the face of rapid growth as a result of the Amazon contract (well, OK, management proposed that they be brought back, but at third or fourth year pay when they were due much more than that), instead waiting until they dropped off of the seniority list with the expiration of their recall rights, and only then trying to hire enough to catch up with proper staffing levels.
In the meantime, there was a lot of junior manning going on. Pilots were making ridiculous amounts of money, but they also weren't living much of a life outside of work. They were due compensatory days off, but were often not able to use them, as they would be immediately junior manned as soon as they scheduled those days, earning them back, scheduling them, and getting junior manned in an endless cycle. Then a memo came down from management changing the way those days could be scheduled in a way that the union considered to be a status quo violation of the contract. That was one of the three issues.
Going along with the junior manning, some pilots were not allowed vacation time. That was the second issue.
The third was the refusal by the company to implement a solution to a day/night transition problem that the union had worked out with the scheduling manager.
Also be aware that the company has in the past insisted that pilots should be forced to bid open flying (even though the contract plainly says that pilots are not required to bid open flying) and bid back vacation days, going so far as to try to get a court order to make them do that, and got smacked down by the court each time they tried.
Now consider that when the strike occurred and the company asked a judge to force the pilots back to work, two of the three items had magically been resolved before they even set foot in the courtroom. The third was resolved a few months later, resulting in some pilots getting some pretty big checks.
Do you think the company knew they were in the wrong? Now tell me the strike was "illegal" and unjustified.
ATI is a sister airline to ABX, one of the subsidiaries of ATSG. During the strike, some ATI pilots walked the picket line with ABX pilots, or made themselves unavailable to fly. Others, upon advice from ALPA that the strike wasn't a strike but rather "informational picketing", continued to fly. That's where the "scab" thing comes from.
As a result of the strike, and effectively as a reward to ATI for crossing the picket line (listen to the ATSG CEO's words in the earnings conference call a few months later) or perhaps as punishment to ABX for having the temerity to have a spine, all remaining aircraft for the Amazon contract went to ATI.
This certainly solved the growth vs. manning problem. Growth stopped immediately, as did hiring. But this was not the goal of ABX pilots. ABX pilots want to see the company grow as much as anyone else, but not at the expense of their lives and financial futures.
The contentious relationship between ABX pilots and management goes way back. It was not helped when ABX management refused to bring back a number of furloughed pilots in the face of rapid growth as a result of the Amazon contract (well, OK, management proposed that they be brought back, but at third or fourth year pay when they were due much more than that), instead waiting until they dropped off of the seniority list with the expiration of their recall rights, and only then trying to hire enough to catch up with proper staffing levels.
In the meantime, there was a lot of junior manning going on. Pilots were making ridiculous amounts of money, but they also weren't living much of a life outside of work. They were due compensatory days off, but were often not able to use them, as they would be immediately junior manned as soon as they scheduled those days, earning them back, scheduling them, and getting junior manned in an endless cycle. Then a memo came down from management changing the way those days could be scheduled in a way that the union considered to be a status quo violation of the contract. That was one of the three issues.
Going along with the junior manning, some pilots were not allowed vacation time. That was the second issue.
The third was the refusal by the company to implement a solution to a day/night transition problem that the union had worked out with the scheduling manager.
Also be aware that the company has in the past insisted that pilots should be forced to bid open flying (even though the contract plainly says that pilots are not required to bid open flying) and bid back vacation days, going so far as to try to get a court order to make them do that, and got smacked down by the court each time they tried.
Now consider that when the strike occurred and the company asked a judge to force the pilots back to work, two of the three items had magically been resolved before they even set foot in the courtroom. The third was resolved a few months later, resulting in some pilots getting some pretty big checks.
Do you think the company knew they were in the wrong? Now tell me the strike was "illegal" and unjustified.
ATI is a sister airline to ABX, one of the subsidiaries of ATSG. During the strike, some ATI pilots walked the picket line with ABX pilots, or made themselves unavailable to fly. Others, upon advice from ALPA that the strike wasn't a strike but rather "informational picketing", continued to fly. That's where the "scab" thing comes from.
As a result of the strike, and effectively as a reward to ATI for crossing the picket line (listen to the ATSG CEO's words in the earnings conference call a few months later) or perhaps as punishment to ABX for having the temerity to have a spine, all remaining aircraft for the Amazon contract went to ATI.
This certainly solved the growth vs. manning problem. Growth stopped immediately, as did hiring. But this was not the goal of ABX pilots. ABX pilots want to see the company grow as much as anyone else, but not at the expense of their lives and financial futures.
