ABX spooling down
 

We have just had someone on a union committee at ATI say that ABX is going to be dissolved this year.

I guess they should know since they work with management so much.

I hope people keep bailing so movement keeps up.

nope......

And you continue to believe everything your management sponsored union tells you?

Hey that’s good news for ATI! One less picket line for scabs to cross. They should be very happy.

That could mean alot of ex ABX pilots at ATI to vote on the next contract....that would be a real fun place to work. Yippee

Word has it if that happens, there’s already a committee in place to block any ABX pilots from getting a prime bag tag, these scabs are pretty jealous about any pilot group besides them representing.

Whaaaat? No bag tag? Whats the point...they might as well go drive truck!

This would seem to be an amazingly-stupid plan. (Which doesn't mean that it doesn't appear brilliant to the geniuses in Hooterville.) If you look at it from mgmt perspective, they have one airline that functions with little drama and one that currently has a lot of very-public drama, causing brain damage for managment and customers alike. If they don't want the drama, combining the two carriers, or hiring pilots from one into the other, makes no sense.

My impression, since the time of the Soaper hiring, is that mgmt wants to demoralize the pilot group to the point that whomever is left accepts a contract that, while not concessionary, isn't what folks were agitating for two years ago. And these remaining pilots can fly whatever DHL business is left. They could also fly the ABX-operated Amazon 767-200s until the 5-year leases expire (starting in 2-ish years), after which it is likely that those frames would be returned to CAM and replaced with something else (or moved to Atlas or Kalitta since they can't go to ATI). I don't think there has ever been a question that the pilot group at ABX is exceptionally-talented and operates in a unique way (where it otherwise should have been a pleasure for a younger pilot to work and to improve skills). If labor peace were ever to arrive, and customers to stop hating all the drama, then the place could begin slowly to expand again. In an environment of labor peace, ATSG should be able to sell ABX as a premium provider with higher performance metrics owing to express-like operating policies. (Of course, ABX would then have to perform at that level, and not every customer needs that; but there should be some developments on the horizon in the business generally where customers could be receptive to that pitch.)

Anyway, I think this is BS -- at least it should be -- but I suppose it is possible.

Its just typical ATSG (Soaper) scare tactics. Sadly they don't realize that scaring the pilots here gets them to quit, not capitulate.

I am also actively seeking new employment. They've lost 4 pilots so far this month. I just talked to someone who's got a job next month and another one who has an interview. Plus one of the guys they just hired is already regretting coming here.

So it looks like more than 4 leaving next month.


This place is toxic. Get out while you can. We already took a concessionary contract in 2009. No way in hell am I giving away anything else. I'd rather burn it to the ground. I'm a no vote to anything less than getting back what we lost +.

Anybody who believes anything they read on APC, especially as it relates to the ATSG/ATI/ABX complex, please contact me about some really fantastic real estate deals.

^^^^^^What he said!

BS.....the expense of a total payout all at the same time of ABX crewmembers retirement would probably tank ATSG.... and certainly not make Amazon too happy now that they are tied into the retirement as well.

ATSG funds ABX retirement. Dissolving ABX would not require a total payout of retirement. That said, I think this rumor is either complete baloney or a negotiating tactic.

It could if the majority of the crewmembers all took retirement...also since Amazon owns a portion of ATSG they also are responsible for an amount equal to their portion. That said, I say again it could bury ATSG. The retirement is also underfunded so that has implications. Alot comes into play if ATSG lets ABX wither away. The PBGC has directly tied aircraft as available assets to ABX retirement. It is not cut and dried. I do agree with it being complete baloney though.

I am not a finance guy so I don’t know for sure, but if ABX management filed bankruptcy wouldn’t that null and void any contracts and relieve ATSG from paying ABX’s retirement. Isn’t this why a lot of companies create parent companies and sub companies to be able to file bankruptcy as a business tactic or not be held liable for lawsuits because they are legally separate companies. It reminds me of when Frank Larenzo filed bankruptcy with Continental Airlines and operated the company with money from the parent company Texas Air Corporation. Bankruptcy has been used by many Aviation companies to get out of contracts and/or aircraft leases.

Like I said I am not a finance guy but if ATSG wanted to get rid of ABX I am sure they could find a way. I doubt that would ever happen though.

Before the negative comments come in I am not management and am not an expert in finance or bankruptcy laws, just expressing an opinion.

For the above mentioned scenario, 1224 was smart and negotiated the pension to be attached to ATSG and not ABX. Even Soapy didnt realize this little fact when he was bragging about shutting us down and screwing us in our pension. The pension was recently funded to approx 110%.
Incase the shtf and they close ABX, I would like to extend my thanks to all the ATI guys who will be working to pay my pension. Thanks guys!

Not if ATSG lives on....also the PBGC can now take assets (ABX aircraft on certificate before ATI, CAM, etc) to fund it if ATSG went under. ATI pilots have been working to fund our retirement and will be for years to come. I actually looked at it as a positive those idiots did not get a retirement...it helps fund the ABX pilots retirement. One other thing....the bankruptcy laws changed quite a bit after Delta and United dumped their retirements on the tax payers.

I don't think owning stock in a company exposes you to a pension liability.

You are 100% correct, but also Amazon doesn't own any of ATSG anyways- they have the right to purchase 19.9% at a set price, but have not exercised that right. Amazon has no current equity interest in ATSG. ATSG carries the value of those warrants on the books, which is what led to the 'fake loss' last Q when they revalued them to current market price (and also led to the filing that confused basically everyone- https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/d...603dsc13ga.htm )

that filing DOES NOT mean Amazon owns shares.

And don’t forget the bonus gifts!!!

They are doing it for less money than their peers at K4 and Omni and paying for it with vacation on their off days! :p :) :cool:

Even if Amazon excersized the options...none of it matters anyway. I think the rumor is BS and Amazon will most likely divest themselves of any connection to ATSG when their Airline operation is up and running. All contract rumors.

I would agree.

[QUOTE=nitefr8dog;2603541]Even if Amazon excersized the options...none of it matters anyway. I think the rumor is BS and Amazon will most likely divest themselves of any connection to ATSG when their Airline operation is up and running. All contract rumors.[/


What would happen to with those precious bag tags, do they have to return them?
According to ATI pilots they believe amazon will buy them out from ATSG.

[QUOTE=BlueSkies88;2603556]There's the rub....I was really hoping for some Prime bag tags.

[QUOTE=nitefr8dog;2603811]Should be able to find them.....on Ebay..:)

[QUOTE=filejw;2604088]Or....once Amazon dumps ATSG..the ATI crews will probably just give them away if someone asks for it.

The whole bag tag thing bewilders me.

ATI denied any involvement with the making of them.

Talk to any ATI guy and they deny all kinds of things... You might even say they operate in a permanent state of denial.

They also deny voting for that CBA.

Absolve all you want ATI....
Date of hire works for me.

Rumor has it they signed a letter (just like in the old contract) that says any ATI pilot who refuses to cross a picket line will be fired.
Why would you allow that???

Tis' true.

Picket Lines: Sympathetic Action

It will be a violation of this Agreement and will be cause for discharge,
disciplinary action, or permanent replacement, should any Pilot refuse to
enter upon any property involved in a primary and/or secondary labor
dispute, including a primary picket line involving employees of the

Company.
...
"In the spirit of Labor-Management cooperation," [Labor Disputes Letter]

Unbelievable.......

ATI Pilots just crossed the threshold of gutless to nutless. Truly a treehouse club for a union.

Why not just name the place Scab Air ?

What a sad group.

In any event...If one had any brains and/or balls, you would immediately cross that Picket Line , get fired, and then retire on the proceeds of a Wrongful Termination lawsuit.

"The National Labor Relations Act (NLRA) shields nonunion, nonsupervisory employees’ decision to honor a picket line as protected concerted activity. Any discipline for an employee’s refusal to cross a picket line will be deemed a violation of the NLRA and an unfair labor practice, noted James Hays, an attorney with Sheppard Mullin in New York City."

Can't fix STUPID though...

:(

STK

Let history be the judge. ATI has always been a scumbag redneck operation. Less ATSG and its whip saw tactics, it would have DIED decades ago with the likes of Fine Air, Arrow Air, CAT

Folks - please check with your own legal counsel before taking action that could get you fired. While there is debate about general no-strike clauses waiving sympathy strikes if the sympathy strike waiver is clear and unambigous and you are part of the union, be careful. The decision to cross a picket line must often be done without much time for review.

Some unions (teamsters) are known for not signing these types of waivers. Don't know the ABX agreement, but freight side this is langauge.

"Section 1. Picket Lines: Sympathetic Action
It shall not be a violation of this Agreement, and it shall not be cause
for discharge, disciplinary action or permanent replacement in the
event an employee refuses to enter upon any property involved in a
primary labor dispute, or refuses to go through or work behind any
primary picket line, including the primary picket line of Unions
party to this Agreement, and including primary picket lines at the
Employer’s places of business."

Notice the difference?

Teamsters Contract:

During the term of this Agreement, neither the Union nor the Pilots will authorize, cause, or engage in any work stoppage, strike, slowdown, sympathy strike or job action. The Company reserves the right to discharge or otherwise discipline any Pilot taking part in any violation of this provision of the Agreement, and only the Pilot’s participation in the proscribed conduct may be the subject of a grievance
or a submission to the System Board of Adjustment.

Both Unions are guilty of accepting this language.

By posting langauage I didn't mean to completely stir the pot (maybe a little...). One can post whatever is in the Atlas, ABX, others contracts as well. IMO the langauage has a certain dress value; another way to say this is "actions speak louder than words".

So regardless of the content, intent, or words in ones agreement, when it comes to this topic the true actions are what happens on the line and in the streets. Atlas, Kalitta, and other have shown their colors and support, ATI also has shown their color (more like a DHL yellow streak).

If call upon again in the future, I give all carriers (including ATI) the chance to do what's right....regardless of their agreement. Most agree that was not the case in the past; something we can not turn the clock back on. Given all the circumstances (well documented on APC) I give those guys another bite at the apple if called upon (talking strike actions only here). I don't see throwing 250 guys away at the actions of 10-20...and that includes their MEC at the time. I know it's high expectations given the contract they have signed.

Go easy on me...I have thin skin <NOT>:rolleyes:

They are a bunch of sheep....