Recent FedEx 767 delivery flight
07-26-2018, 07:43 AM
#11
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,018
Originally Posted by trip
If you think pulling out your film camera during taxi to snap pics is OK then were not even in the same universe. During cruise, does it have batteries? auto focus? Looks like 60K airline pilots got it wrong but JB got it right! Whatever.
Sixty thousand airline pilots are irrelevant: they do not make the regulation, nor is their position on regulation meaningful. The regulation is meaningful. The FAA Chief Legal Counsel and Assistant Chief Legal Counsel and even Regional Legal Counsel legal interpretations are relevant and meaningful. The Federal Register preambles associated with the introduction of regulation and regulatory change is meaningful, because those sources comprise the basis for a correct legal understanding of the regulation.
You've drawn from none of those, but a cartoon flow chart and straw man indefensible arguments to support a baseless statement founded on conjecture.
People sometimes do that when they haven't a leg on which to stand.
07-26-2018, 09:14 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,230
No need to get personal and all uptight!
I'll take your bait and give you a couple more clicks (if that's what you're really after)
Sec. 91.21 — Portable electronic devices.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to—
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.
(c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate, the determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made by the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.
Have a great day JB!
I'll take your bait and give you a couple more clicks (if that's what you're really after)
§121.542 Flight crewmember duties.
(a) No certificate holder shall require, nor may any flight crewmember perform, any duties during a critical phase of flight except those duties required for the safe operation of the aircraft. Duties such as company required calls made for such nonsafety related purposes as ordering galley supplies and confirming passenger connections, announcements made to passengers promoting the air carrier or pointing out sights of interest, and filling out company payroll and related records are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(b) No flight crewmember may engage in, nor may any pilot in command permit, any activity during a critical phase of flight which could distract any flight crewmember from the performance of his or her duties or which could interfere in any way with the proper conduct of those duties. Activities such as eating meals, engaging in nonessential conversations within the cockpit and nonessential communications between the cabin and cockpit crews, and reading publications not related to the proper conduct of the flight are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(c) For the purposes of this section, critical phases of flight includes all ground operations involving taxi, takeoff and landing, and all other flight operations conducted below 10,000 feet, except cruise flight.
(a) No certificate holder shall require, nor may any flight crewmember perform, any duties during a critical phase of flight except those duties required for the safe operation of the aircraft. Duties such as company required calls made for such nonsafety related purposes as ordering galley supplies and confirming passenger connections, announcements made to passengers promoting the air carrier or pointing out sights of interest, and filling out company payroll and related records are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(b) No flight crewmember may engage in, nor may any pilot in command permit, any activity during a critical phase of flight which could distract any flight crewmember from the performance of his or her duties or which could interfere in any way with the proper conduct of those duties. Activities such as eating meals, engaging in nonessential conversations within the cockpit and nonessential communications between the cabin and cockpit crews, and reading publications not related to the proper conduct of the flight are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(c) For the purposes of this section, critical phases of flight includes all ground operations involving taxi, takeoff and landing, and all other flight operations conducted below 10,000 feet, except cruise flight.
49 U.S.C.
United States Code, 2016 Edition
Title 49 - TRANSPORTATION
SUBTITLE VII - AVIATION PROGRAMS
PART A - AIR COMMERCE AND SAFETY
subpart iii - safety
CHAPTER 447 - SAFETY REGULATION
Sec. 44732 - Prohibition on personal use of electronic devices on flight deck
From the U.S. Government Publishing Office, www.gpo.gov
§44732. Prohibition on personal use of electronic devices on flight deck
(a) In General.—It is unlawful for a flight crewmember of an aircraft used to provide air transportation under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, to use a personal wireless communications device or laptop computer while at the flight crewmember's duty station on the flight deck of such an aircraft while the aircraft is being operated.
(b) Exceptions.—Subsection (a) shall not apply to the use of a personal wireless communications device or laptop computer for a purpose directly related to operation of the aircraft, or for emergency, safety-related, or employment-related communications, in accordance with procedures established by the air carrier and the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration.
(c) Enforcement.—In addition to the penalties provided under section 46301 applicable to any violation of this section, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may enforce compliance with this section under section 44709 by amending, modifying, suspending, or revoking a certificate under this chapter.
(d) Personal Wireless Communications Device Defined.—In this section, the term "personal wireless communications device" means a device through which personal wireless services (as defined in section 332(c)(7)(C)(i) of the Communications Act of 1934 (47 U.S.C. 332(c)(7)(C)(i))) are transmitted.
(Added Pub. L. 112–95, title III, §307(a), Feb. 14, 2012, 126 Stat. 61.)
Regulations
Pub. L. 112–95, title III, §307(d), Feb. 14, 2012, 126 Stat. 62, provided that: "Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment of this Act [Feb. 14, 2012], the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall initiate a rulemaking procedure for regulations to carry out section 44732 of title 49, United States Code (as added by this section), and shall issue a final rule thereunder not later than 2 years after the date of enactment of this Act."
United States Code, 2016 Edition
Title 49 - TRANSPORTATION
SUBTITLE VII - AVIATION PROGRAMS
PART A - AIR COMMERCE AND SAFETY
subpart iii - safety
CHAPTER 447 - SAFETY REGULATION
Sec. 44732 - Prohibition on personal use of electronic devices on flight deck
From the U.S. Government Publishing Office, www.gpo.gov
§44732. Prohibition on personal use of electronic devices on flight deck
(a) In General.—It is unlawful for a flight crewmember of an aircraft used to provide air transportation under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, to use a personal wireless communications device or laptop computer while at the flight crewmember's duty station on the flight deck of such an aircraft while the aircraft is being operated.
(b) Exceptions.—Subsection (a) shall not apply to the use of a personal wireless communications device or laptop computer for a purpose directly related to operation of the aircraft, or for emergency, safety-related, or employment-related communications, in accordance with procedures established by the air carrier and the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration.
(c) Enforcement.—In addition to the penalties provided under section 46301 applicable to any violation of this section, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may enforce compliance with this section under section 44709 by amending, modifying, suspending, or revoking a certificate under this chapter.
(d) Personal Wireless Communications Device Defined.—In this section, the term "personal wireless communications device" means a device through which personal wireless services (as defined in section 332(c)(7)(C)(i) of the Communications Act of 1934 (47 U.S.C. 332(c)(7)(C)(i))) are transmitted.
(Added Pub. L. 112–95, title III, §307(a), Feb. 14, 2012, 126 Stat. 61.)
Regulations
Pub. L. 112–95, title III, §307(d), Feb. 14, 2012, 126 Stat. 62, provided that: "Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment of this Act [Feb. 14, 2012], the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall initiate a rulemaking procedure for regulations to carry out section 44732 of title 49, United States Code (as added by this section), and shall issue a final rule thereunder not later than 2 years after the date of enactment of this Act."
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to—
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.
(c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate, the determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made by the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.
Have a great day JB!
Last edited by trip; 07-26-2018 at 09:29 AM.
07-26-2018, 09:19 AM
#13
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,018
Originally Posted by trip
No need to get personal and all uptight!
I'll take your bait and give you a couple more clicks (if that's what you're really after)
I'll take your bait and give you a couple more clicks (if that's what you're really after)
Auto focus is irrelevant, as are your other unsupported points.
You didn't have a leg to stand upon, it seemed, and you've verified that. The regulation does not prohibit taking the picture.
Nor posting it online, if desired.
Nice try, though.
Sure you don't want to try a straw-man appeal to 60,000 pilots again?
07-26-2018, 10:13 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,230
This is fun, kind of!
It's OK to be wrong JB!
Your battery powered auto focus 35mm still meets the definition of electronic device, so unless your "operator" determined it OK for 91.21 B5 it not OK.
You wouldn't do it with a FAA observer and you know that to be true.
Just ask him to snap the pic and email it to you, save some headaches!
Do you have an FAR compliant rig? Lots of us would like to see it.
It's OK to be wrong JB!
C. Operational Timeframes for Prohibition
Section 307 of the Act states that it is unlawful to use a device for personal use while an aircraft is being operated. The meaning of an “aircraft being operated” as it pertains to some FAA regulations is very broad, to include being parked at the gate while passengers are boarding. The FAA clarifies that for the purposes of this rule, the meaning of an “aircraft being operated” mirrors the definition of “flight time” in 14 CFR 1.1. Therefore, the prohibition on the personal use of laptop computers and personal wireless communications devices commences at taxi (movement of the aircraft under its own power) and ends when the aircraft is parked at the gate at the end of the flight segment.
Section 307 of the Act states that it is unlawful to use a device for personal use while an aircraft is being operated. The meaning of an “aircraft being operated” as it pertains to some FAA regulations is very broad, to include being parked at the gate while passengers are boarding. The FAA clarifies that for the purposes of this rule, the meaning of an “aircraft being operated” mirrors the definition of “flight time” in 14 CFR 1.1. Therefore, the prohibition on the personal use of laptop computers and personal wireless communications devices commences at taxi (movement of the aircraft under its own power) and ends when the aircraft is parked at the gate at the end of the flight segment.
You wouldn't do it with a FAA observer and you know that to be true.
Just ask him to snap the pic and email it to you, save some headaches!
Do you have an FAR compliant rig? Lots of us would like to see it.
07-26-2018, 04:09 PM
#16
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,018
Originally Posted by trip
This is fun, kind of!
It's OK to be wrong JB!
Your battery powered auto focus 35mm still meets the definition of electronic device, so unless your "operator" determined it OK for 91.21 B5 it not OK.
You wouldn't do it with a FAA observer and you know that to be true.
Just ask him to snap the pic and email it to you, save some headaches!
Do you have an FAR compliant rig? Lots of us would like to see it.
It's OK to be wrong JB!
Your battery powered auto focus 35mm still meets the definition of electronic device, so unless your "operator" determined it OK for 91.21 B5 it not OK.
You wouldn't do it with a FAA observer and you know that to be true.
Just ask him to snap the pic and email it to you, save some headaches!
Do you have an FAR compliant rig? Lots of us would like to see it.
Try to focus, if you can.
The thread involves a B767 parked, with four aircraft at the end of a runway. There is no regulatory prohibition against taking photographs from that position, and in response to your mistatement, I would take a picture with the FAA on board, as I have done. Most likely the FAA would either hand me their camera, or lean past me to take a picture. As has been done.
Still looking for your regulatory basis for "auto focus." Is that found in the sixty thousand pilots, too, or just the cartoon flow chart?
07-26-2018, 09:00 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,230
Cool story with the FAA! Bet you've got a lot of them Big John.
Still waiting for the link to that camera you use on the flight deck that can post up pics? Curious, you ever find your flying partner staring out their window for hours in silence?
Still waiting for the link to that camera you use on the flight deck that can post up pics? Curious, you ever find your flying partner staring out their window for hours in silence?
07-27-2018, 05:41 AM
#18
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,018
Originally Posted by trip
Cool story with the FAA! Bet you've got a lot of them Big John.
Still waiting for the link to that camera you use on the flight deck that can post up pics? Curious, you ever find your flying partner staring out their window for hours in silence?
Still waiting for the link to that camera you use on the flight deck that can post up pics? Curious, you ever find your flying partner staring out their window for hours in silence?
People do that when they've no leg to stand on. Are you really missing both?
Given that most operators have allowance for portable electronic devices today, to include cell phones operated in "airplane mode," that have capability of taking a photo, and most all operators utilize electronic flight bags, many of which are iPads with camera capability, and given that any of those may be used to take a picture, particularly when sitting in the parking space, brake set, holding short, you're on bloody stumps there, mate.
Last edited by JohnBurke; 07-27-2018 at 05:59 AM.
07-27-2018, 07:01 AM
#19
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,018
For several years now airlines have operated with and used guidance to permit electronic devices on board, from EFB's in the the cockpit and noise cancelling headsets to music players, cameras, cell phones, iPads, laptop computers, and hundreds of other devices. If you haven't flown in the last fifteen years, you might have missed it.
You might have missed the more recent guidance to operators on compliance and establishing operator use and approval of such devices.
It's commonly used.
https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia.../InFO13010.pdf
https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia...fo13010sup.pdf
You attempted to quote 14 CFR 121.542 in part, without citation or link or reference, but omitted the most relevant part to this discussion.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id..._1542&rgn=div8
The note is important. When the parking brake is set and the aircraft is not moving under its own power on the surface of the airport, it has suspended taxi. It's for this reason that if a non-essential item needs addressing (eg, company call, etc) during the taxi, one should stop the aircraft, set the brake, make the call; same for studying charts that require crewmembers to go heads down, and so forth.
The 767 above is parked. It's not going anywhere. It's got four aircraft and a fuel truck immediately in front of it. There is no regulatory restriction to the crew on that aircraft from taking a picture with a camera, their phones, or their electronic flight bags, and there is absolutely NO regulatory restriction against sharing that picture as they see fit.
You might have missed the more recent guidance to operators on compliance and establishing operator use and approval of such devices.
It's commonly used.
https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia.../InFO13010.pdf
https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia...fo13010sup.pdf
You attempted to quote 14 CFR 121.542 in part, without citation or link or reference, but omitted the most relevant part to this discussion.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id..._1542&rgn=div8
§121.542 Flight crewmember duties.
(a) No certificate holder shall require, nor may any flight crewmember perform, any duties during a critical phase of flight except those duties required for the safe operation of the aircraft. Duties such as company required calls made for such nonsafety related purposes as ordering galley supplies and confirming passenger connections, announcements made to passengers promoting the air carrier or pointing out sights of interest, and filling out company payroll and related records are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(b) No flight crewmember may engage in, nor may any pilot in command permit, any activity during a critical phase of flight which could distract any flight crewmember from the performance of his or her duties or which could interfere in any way with the proper conduct of those duties. Activities such as eating meals, engaging in nonessential conversations within the cockpit and nonessential communications between the cabin and cockpit crews, and reading publications not related to the proper conduct of the flight are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(c) For the purposes of this section, critical phases of flight includes all ground operations involving taxi, takeoff and landing, and all other flight operations conducted below 10,000 feet, except cruise flight.
Note: Taxi is defined as “movement of an airplane under its own power on the surface of an airport.”
(d) During all flight time as defined in 14 CFR 1.1, no flight crewmember may use, nor may any pilot in command permit the use of, a personal wireless communications device (as defined in 49 U.S.C. 44732(d)) or laptop computer while at a flight crewmember duty station unless the purpose is directly related to operation of the aircraft, or for emergency, safety-related, or employment-related communications, in accordance with air carrier procedures approved by the Administrator.
(a) No certificate holder shall require, nor may any flight crewmember perform, any duties during a critical phase of flight except those duties required for the safe operation of the aircraft. Duties such as company required calls made for such nonsafety related purposes as ordering galley supplies and confirming passenger connections, announcements made to passengers promoting the air carrier or pointing out sights of interest, and filling out company payroll and related records are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(b) No flight crewmember may engage in, nor may any pilot in command permit, any activity during a critical phase of flight which could distract any flight crewmember from the performance of his or her duties or which could interfere in any way with the proper conduct of those duties. Activities such as eating meals, engaging in nonessential conversations within the cockpit and nonessential communications between the cabin and cockpit crews, and reading publications not related to the proper conduct of the flight are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(c) For the purposes of this section, critical phases of flight includes all ground operations involving taxi, takeoff and landing, and all other flight operations conducted below 10,000 feet, except cruise flight.
Note: Taxi is defined as “movement of an airplane under its own power on the surface of an airport.”
(d) During all flight time as defined in 14 CFR 1.1, no flight crewmember may use, nor may any pilot in command permit the use of, a personal wireless communications device (as defined in 49 U.S.C. 44732(d)) or laptop computer while at a flight crewmember duty station unless the purpose is directly related to operation of the aircraft, or for emergency, safety-related, or employment-related communications, in accordance with air carrier procedures approved by the Administrator.
The 767 above is parked. It's not going anywhere. It's got four aircraft and a fuel truck immediately in front of it. There is no regulatory restriction to the crew on that aircraft from taking a picture with a camera, their phones, or their electronic flight bags, and there is absolutely NO regulatory restriction against sharing that picture as they see fit.
07-27-2018, 09:10 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,476
Originally Posted by trip
Airline pilots can't do that stuff, FAA says so.
Flight Standards Information System (FSIMS)
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