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Old 05-14-2019, 05:13 PM   #131  
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Originally Posted by ACMItrash View Post
Atlas and ABX just ran a 50 foot sign right in front of Jeff Bezos that said ready to strike ! No aircraft anytime soon without a contract. They don't want to pay. Nothing to see here except more new hire washouts!

ATSG
AAWW
Nothing like a truly-meaningless gesture to keep the troops amped up -- maybe they won't notice that they're not gonna see a contract for the next few years as talks grind on in part because of Atlas litigation spawned by an extreme negotiating position.

And yet Atlas continues to take contracts from other airlines (like K4) and will have a slew of 737s for Amazon through Southern. They will have no problem staffing those aircraft because they don't care who is in the cockpit.

ABX is the only 1224 carrier that is taking it on the chin. They are putting themselves out of jobs to help the folks at Atlas.

I have said repeatedly that the accident in Houston could just as well have been a planeload of troops. AMC should be seriously thinking about standing Atlas down and redistributing their military flying to other carriers, including the major airline team members via an activation if necessary. If it's as bad as the Atlas pilots say -- and it appears that it is given what happened aboard the accident aircraft -- AMC has no business putting soldiers on those aircraft. I don't expect much from the FAA until there is a bunch of civilian blood spilled, which is unlikely, but AMC ought to be horrified. Maybe after the preliminary NTSB report, which I expect to be brutal.

But for now, Billy and his ilk are telling the shareholders that his strategy is working while he beats Connie and others (including ABX) on price and continues to grow his business.
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:59 AM   #132  
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Nothing like a truly-meaningless gesture to keep the troops amped up -- maybe they won't notice that they're not gonna see a contract for the next few years as talks grind on in part because of Atlas litigation spawned by an extreme negotiating position.

And yet Atlas continues to take contracts from other airlines (like K4) and will have a slew of 737s for Amazon through Southern. They will have no problem staffing those aircraft because they don't care who is in the cockpit.

ABX is the only 1224 carrier that is taking it on the chin. They are putting themselves out of jobs to help the folks at Atlas.

I have said repeatedly that the accident in Houston could just as well have been a planeload of troops. AMC should be seriously thinking about standing Atlas down and redistributing their military flying to other carriers, including the major airline team members via an activation if necessary. If it's as bad as the Atlas pilots say -- and it appears that it is given what happened aboard the accident aircraft -- AMC has no business putting soldiers on those aircraft. I don't expect much from the FAA until there is a bunch of civilian blood spilled, which is unlikely, but AMC ought to be horrified. Maybe after the preliminary NTSB report, which I expect to be brutal.

But for now, Billy and his ilk are telling the shareholders that his strategy is working while he beats Connie and others (including ABX) on price and continues to grow his business.
Sad truth: The Prelim has already been issued by the NTSB. It simply didn't contain any useful information.

I'll let you read into that what you may.
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Old 05-15-2019, 05:30 PM   #133  
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Nothing like a truly-meaningless gesture to keep the troops amped up -- maybe they won't notice that they're not gonna see a contract for the next few years as talks grind on in part because of Atlas litigation spawned by an extreme negotiating position.
A meaningless gesture, yet if you google Amazon Air along with the CVG airport, half the press articles and news reports are about the pilots being underpaid and overworked, in part, causing the subcontractor airlines to be in a severely unsafe situation. Meaningless, yet you are talking about it too.

"There is no such thing as bad publicity." P.T. Barnum

I have read enough of your posts across multiple forums to observe your extreme anti-union viewpoint. It intrigues me that you are obviously an extreme aviation fan but so anti-pilot. After all, who do you think makes up the union that you speak of?

I find it interesting to read that you find the Atlas pilot group negotiating position to be extreme when we simply want the same pay and work rules as the rest of our colleagues in the industry already enjoy. If that position is too extreme and management elitist egos push this contentious situation on for another few years, as you suggest, you will see free market forces completely destroy this airline and it will be an absolute miracle if there aren't multiple aircraft crashes along the way. Hopefully the next one that crashes ends up in the swamp as well and not into an elementary school or a neighborhood.

In the aviation world, where airline management talent seems to be far and few between, it is always funny to observe how free market is preached and cheered on when it favors a management agenda but it is feverishly fought against when the free market goes against what management wants. Adam Smith wins every time and this situation will be no different.

Either the talentless management teams of AAWW and ATSG come to terms with reality or they end up running their companies into the ground. Maybe somebody needs to pick up the phone and call Bryan Bedford. I am sure he has a fresh life lesson he can share.
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Old 05-16-2019, 08:17 PM   #134  
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A meaningless gesture, yet if you google Amazon Air along with the CVG airport, half the press articles and news reports are about the pilots being underpaid and overworked, in part, causing the subcontractor airlines to be in a severely unsafe situation. Meaningless, yet you are talking about it too.
Don't confuse reporting with action. A lot of ink gets spilled over a lot of things. Very few read it, and only a small fraction care. None of it is likely to translate into anything meaningful to anyone.

Yes, we're talking about it. But that's about it. Nobody else is, because nobody cares outside of those directly involved.

I give the Alaska pilots a hard time because they're fond of their orange lanyards. The pilots are convinced that management hates the orange lanyards, as if that will spur them to action. Big deal. It's a meaningless gesture that ultimately changes nothing. Management, for their part, does seem annoyed by them, and I think they're idiots, too, because it's a meaningless gesture.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:23 AM   #135  
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The only thing any management group responds to is loss of revenue. The rest is just noise.
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Old 05-17-2019, 02:56 PM   #136  
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I have read enough of your posts across multiple forums to observe your extreme anti-union viewpoint.
I say this respectfully: There's a difference between being opposed to self-destructive, pointless union activity that does nothing but entrench the spoiled leaders and pay big $$ to lawyers for years of delay and basically no results that truly benefit the rank and file, and being "anti-union".

I applaud what I think are smart, effective tactics, and criticize ones that are not. That we may disagree about the likely effectiveness and probable outcome doesn't make me an adversary.

You guys are locked in pointless, low probability of success litigation that the company loves because it puts off ever really getting to a contract. Again, it's not strategically-beneficial, it's a result of trying to show who has the bigger set, which isn't a clean route to a result for members.

The way to get Atlas to focus on the legitimate beef of low quality candidates and training is to do what I suggested. Good stuff will result, but of course leaders won't get obvious credit for it, so they would rather follow a different strategy.

Last edited by wjcandee; 05-17-2019 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 05-17-2019, 04:06 PM   #137  
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I say this respectfully: There's a difference between being opposed to self-destructive, pointless union activity that does nothing but entrench the spoiled leaders and pay big $$ to lawyers for years of delay and basically no results that truly benefit the rank and file, and being "anti-union".

I applaud what I think are smart, effective tactics, and criticize ones that are not. That we may disagree about the likely effectiveness and probable outcome doesn't make me an adversary.

You guys are locked in pointless, low probability of success litigation that the company loves because it puts off ever really getting to a contract. Again, it's not strategically-beneficial, it's a result of trying to show who has the bigger set, which isn't a clean route to a result for members.

The way to get Atlas to focus on the legitimate beef of low quality candidates and training is to do what I suggested. Good stuff will result, but of course leaders won't get obvious credit for it, so they would rather follow a different strategy.
The same as everyone else, the leaders want results, period. In a world where big money writes the laws, the overall system is designed to keep airline labor suppressed while forcing the aircraft to continue to move. Don't believe me? Look at the last airline pilot section 6 strike. It was the Spirit strike nine years ago. When airlines are able to drag their feet in negotiations for 6-10 years on contracts that can be negotiated in under one month, there is a problem with the system. In this specific case, people have now died and more will die all so a few at the top can become wealthy to a level beyond what any of us can even comprehend.

We will fight on low probability of success cases as well as high probability of success cases. We will leave no rock unturned. Choosing to just sit idle while our contract gets violated does nothing for us except slowly erode what little benefits we currently have. At Atlas Air, choosing to play nice with management only leads to being taken advantage of. We have years of history prove that point.

This is Eastern Airlines all over again and just like at Eastern, labor never sets the tone.
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Old 05-17-2019, 04:28 PM   #138  
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The same as everyone else, the leaders want results, period. In a world where big money writes the laws, the overall system is designed to keep airline labor suppressed while forcing the aircraft to continue to move. Don't believe me? Look at the last airline pilot section 6 strike. It was the Spirit strike nine years ago. When airlines are able to drag their feet in negotiations for 6-10 years on contracts that can be negotiated in under one month, there is a problem with the system. In this specific case, people have now died and more will die all so a few at the top can become wealthy to a level beyond what any of us can even comprehend.

We will fight on low probability of success cases as well as high probability of success cases. We will leave no rock unturned. Choosing to just sit idle while our contract gets violated does nothing for us except slowly erode what little benefits we currently have. At Atlas Air, choosing to play nice with management only leads to being taken advantage of. We have years of history prove that point.

This is Eastern Airlines all over again and just like at Eastern, labor never sets the tone.
Well, we disagree about a lot of what you said. I don't see you or I to be a victim of The Man or The System. Rather than be a Social Justice Warrior decrying the system, I would rather work the system -- really any set of rules that applies to me -- in a way that puts the most money in my pocket. Start worrying about showing The Man that you're a man, too, and you will waste a lot of time on things that have nothing to do with compensation.

A scorched-earth policy sounds nice when politically grandstanding, but it costs the members a lot of money and actually delays an outcome, which means that people go a long time at one pay rate when they could be making more money at a pay/rules rate that is not optimal but higher. In my opinion, the more-quickly contracts get turned, across more airlines, the more $$ in members' pockets. Get the deal done, take more compensation, then set up for the next one, while your brethren do the same, thus helping to advance you. I think it plays into management's hands to constantly be at war, but it creates a context for leaders to hold their positions and try to unify troops -- and to shout down differing beliefs. It has been so since the time of Sun Tzu, and certainly Brave New World.

I think better to get the agreement done, spend the lawyer money on wording the contract correctly, and enforce the crystal clear contract provisions through the grievance process. Meanwhile, start working on the next contract.

You can feel free to disagree about strategy, of course. Mine is just an opinion. But I'll bet it's one that's shared among some of the quieter members of your pilot group.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:02 PM   #139  
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Well, we disagree about a lot of what you said. I don't see you or I to be a victim of The Man or The System. Rather than be a Social Justice Warrior decrying the system, I would rather work the system -- really any set of rules that applies to me -- in a way that puts the most money in my pocket. Start worrying about showing The Man that you're a man, too, and you will waste a lot of time on things that have nothing to do with compensation.

A scorched-earth policy sounds nice when politically grandstanding, but it costs the members a lot of money and actually delays an outcome, which means that people go a long time at one pay rate when they could be making more money at a pay/rules rate that is not optimal but higher. In my opinion, the more-quickly contracts get turned, across more airlines, the more $$ in members' pockets. Get the deal done, take more compensation, then set up for the next one, while your brethren do the same, thus helping to advance you. I think it plays into management's hands to constantly be at war, but it creates a context for leaders to hold their positions and try to unify troops -- and to shout down differing beliefs. It has been so since the time of Sun Tzu, and certainly Brave New World.

I think better to get the agreement done, spend the lawyer money on wording the contract correctly, and enforce the crystal clear contract provisions through the grievance process. Meanwhile, start working on the next contract.

You can feel free to disagree about strategy, of course. Mine is just an opinion. But I'll bet it's one that's shared among some of the quieter members of your pilot group.

As pilots, I do not view us as a victim at all. I view us as living in a world with a set of rules that are designed to suppress us. It is not bad, it is not good, it is what it is. This just means we have a greater hurdle to overcome. I mean honestly, how much skill does it take to say "no" at every negotiation session for years while reaping the benefits of cheap labor? The playing field isn't level and I won't play victim, I will work to change the playing field.

I see a common assumption you make about assuming unions constantly engage in political grandstanding as well. There is none. We simply aren't interested in it. I see no benefit in engaging in it and don't get the point of it. Your mileage may vary.

A smaller deal now is better than a bigger deal later....what you are describing is called a time value of money proposition. I understand it well. In order to have a time value of money comparison, one has to have an offer now versus a greater hypothetical offer later to compare it to. The common mistake is making the assumption that an offer is on the table. There is not, nor has there ever been an offer on the table. Until an offer is made, you are just describing a fantasy scenario.

Your data tracking on aircraft is impressive, you may want to stick to that and leave the labor relations to those better suited for it.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:50 PM   #140  
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Your data tracking on aircraft is impressive, you may want to stick to that and leave the labor relations to those better suited for it.
I think that's a compliment; I really don't care which side of the hand it came from. So...thanks!!

As to the rest, I feel like you are "making a common assumption" that anybody who disagrees with a certain party line or questions the strategy pursued by certain leaders must not know what they're talking about. That's fine. And expected. I'm not gonna roll out my CV to show what I'm "suited for" or not. Because this isn't about me; it's about the idea I put out there.

I'm only offering my opinion because I have watched you guys expend a lot of energy for zero results for a long time. I think there's an opportunity here to cure an actual safety issue and get you more of what you're looking for. That's all it is. If people think the idea has merit, great. If not, oh well.
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