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-   -   Thinking about Cargo? - A Contract Comparison (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/cargo/117175-thinking-about-cargo-contract-comparison.html)

Grundt 10-04-2018 04:31 PM

Thinking about Cargo? - A Contract Comparison
 
Make an informed decision and know what youíre getting into.

https://www.pilotcontracts.org/

USMCFDX 10-04-2018 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grundt (Post 2686111)
Make an informed decision and know what youíre getting into.

https://www.pilotcontracts.org/

Comparison chart has multiple errors.

Grundt 10-04-2018 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMCFDX (Post 2686122)
Comparison chart has multiple errors.

Letís hear them so that they can be fixed.

Iíll start: it says that all ABX Amazon flights are catered when in fact all ABX Amazon flights EXCEPT for flights leaving CVG are catered.

Industry Strnd 10-04-2018 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grundt (Post 2686126)
Letís hear them so that they can be fixed.

Iíll start: it says that all ABX Amazon flights are catered when in fact all ABX Amazon flights EXCEPT for flights leaving CVG are catered.


Water and some left over mustard packets could be considered catering!

Grundt 10-04-2018 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Industry Strnd (Post 2686134)
Water and some left over mustard packets could be considered catering!

Lol touchť

Diver Driver 10-04-2018 06:21 PM

Good stuff, thanks for creating this. The thread has been pinned to the top for visibility.

dynap09 10-04-2018 07:45 PM

No bad.

I'd be interested to see DOH for junior captain if available.

Blackhawk 10-04-2018 08:41 PM

Another consideration. How long to retirement. Based on my age I will never see the Max FO pay at UPS or FedEx, much less the max CA pay. At another carrier, yes. At someplace like Kalitta I have a chance of making CA pay in the next 10 years. As much as the max CA pay at FedEx or UPS? Nope. But probably more than I would make there as an FO.
Also, I think Kalitta domestic DH is 50%, but international is 100%:

sky jet 10-05-2018 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhawk (Post 2686232)
Another consideration. How long to retirement. Based on my age I will never see the Max FO pay at UPS or FedEx, much less the max CA pay. At another carrier, yes. At someplace like Kalitta I have a chance of making CA pay in the next 10 years. As much as the max CA pay at FedEx or UPS? Nope. But probably more than I would make there as an FO.
Also, I think Kalitta domestic DH is 50%, but international is 100%:

Nope, 50%:mad:

BoilerUP 10-05-2018 04:18 AM

Some of the chartís UPS data is transposed with FDX, perdiem and guarantee and such.

SaltyDog 10-05-2018 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhawk (Post 2686232)
Another consideration. How long to retirement. Based on my age I will never see the Max FO pay at UPS or FedEx, much less the max CA pay. At another carrier, yes. At someplace like Kalitta I have a chance of making CA pay in the next 10 years. As much as the max CA pay at FedEx or UPS? Nope. But probably more than I would make there as an FO.
Also, I think Kalitta domestic DH is 50%, but international is 100%:

In present market and retirement rates, today's new hires at FedEx or UPS will be Captain at 10 years if they choose. Don't discount these two contracts additional DCP and DBP compensation which is not insignificant plus higher monthly guarantee hours.
Cant accurately foretell the future at any place though.

Blackhawk 10-05-2018 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltyDog (Post 2686360)
In present market and retirement rates, today's new hires at FedEx or UPS will be Captain at 10 years if they choose. Don't discount these two contracts additional DCP and DBP compensation which is not insignificant plus higher monthly guarantee hours.
Cant accurately foretell the future at any place though.

My current window is just under 10 years. None of the majors or UPS/FedEx will touch me as I’ve been in the same seat too long and am deemed “untrainable”. Also my GPA from college was less than a 3.0 (double major, drilling with the Guard, well known tough school). So I would have to go somewhere else first to be trained and “prove myself”. By the time I am trained elsewhere, get an interview date, maybe a successful interview, put in the pool, get a class date... I’m down to maybe 8 years. With compressed time the advantages diminish.

Blackhawk 10-05-2018 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sky jet (Post 2686311)
Nope, 50%:mad:

Just read that. I was told wrong.

SaltyDog 10-05-2018 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhawk (Post 2686372)
My current window is just under 10 years. None of the majors or UPS/FedEx will touch me as Iíve been in the same seat too long and am deemed ďuntrainableĒ. Also my GPA from college was less than a 3.0 (double major, drilling with the Guard, well known tough school). So I would have to go somewhere else first to be trained and ďprove myselfĒ. By the time I am trained elsewhere, get an interview date, maybe a successful interview, put in the pool, get a class date... Iím down to maybe 8 years. With compressed time the advantages diminish.

Seems everyone does want a fresh type rating from current employer to demonstrate "trainability" :/
Instructor or LCA carries weight in HR as well.
Best of fortunes

Av8er1550 10-05-2018 07:49 AM

Thinking about Cargo? - A Contract Comparison
 
I know this is probably a ridiculous question but Iím going to ask it anyways. Iíve been with one regional so far so I know how it works on my side but not at other airlines. When looking at the compensation charts, would a 15 year FO upgrading to captain receive 15 year CA pay? Or is this what DOS+(whatever) is intended for?

Excellent post by the way! Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Locke 10-05-2018 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Av8er1550 (Post 2686407)
I know this is probably a ridiculous question but Iím going to ask it anyways. Iíve been with one regional so far so I know how it works on my side but not at other airlines. When looking at the compensation charts, would a 15 year FO upgrading to captain receive 15 year CA pay? Or is this what DOS+(whatever) is intended for?

Excellent post by the way! Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, a 15 year FO would be paid as a 15 year captain when he upgrades with the exception being a few foreign carriers. Also DOS is date of signing of the contract. So say the contract is signed on Jan 1st, but you were hired Jun before the signing. You get your yearly raise in Jun, and you get an additional raise the next Jan 1st because the pay scale will be DOS+1.

Clear as mud?

Av8er1550 10-05-2018 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke (Post 2686447)
Yes, a 15 year FO would be paid as a 15 year captain when he upgrades with the exception being a few foreign carriers. Also DOS is date of signing of the contract. So say the contract is signed on Jan 1st, but you were hired Jun before the signing. You get your yearly raise in Jun, and you get an additional raise the next Jan 1st because the pay scale will be DOS+1.



Clear as mud?



Got it! Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No Land 3 10-05-2018 02:22 PM

Blackhawk, you'd do very well to come to K4, if you can handle the 16 days on the road.

Blackhawk 10-05-2018 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Land 3 (Post 2686654)
Blackhawk, you'd do very well to come to K4, if you can handle the 16 days on the road.

I agree. Iím on my way.

shroomwell 10-05-2018 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grundt (Post 2686111)
Make an informed decision and know what youíre getting into.

https://www.pilotcontracts.org/

I swear Iím not trying to be a jerk. But you misspelled ďknowledgeĒ on the web page.

SaltyDog 10-06-2018 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shroomwell (Post 2686817)
I swear Iím not trying to be a jerk. But you misspelled ďknowledgeĒ on the web page.

thawt was cargo dog speling/truncation, yu have to have knowlede :D

Actually didn't notice till went back and looked

ocskyguy 10-08-2018 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMCFDX (Post 2686122)
Comparison chart has multiple errors.


It is a good start.


Economic realities generally mean that the max pay numbers (based on monthly guarantee) are a little low. At least here at K4, if you are breathing, you get a trip. Much of the more greedy folk are pushing 1200+ pay hours per year.


And, other than the 767 guys (sux to be one of you), we are generally over catered on all flights.


The whole no involuntary assignment thing is golden. Been that way long before there even was a contract. Tradition that became statutory.

WhaleWrangler 10-09-2018 04:59 AM

Your math is wrong for K4. 286.28x64x12 = $219,863.04

Twin Wasp 10-09-2018 06:55 AM

Atlas isn't home based. Current bases JFK, MIA, HSV, CVG, ORD, LAX, ONT and ANC so all trips and pay start and end in those bases. The company gets you to and from the plane but that doesn't occur as part of a pilot's trip, it happens on time off. It is seen as a benefit to the pilot so the value of the ticket can be added to your taxable income. Atlas calls it "Gateway Basing."

No Land 3 10-09-2018 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twin Wasp (Post 2688430)
Atlas isn't home based. Current bases JFK, MIA, HSV, CVG, ORD, LAX, ONT and ANC so all trips and pay start and end in those bases. The company gets you to and from the plane but that doesn't occur as part of a pilot's trip, it happens on time off. It is seen as a benefit to the pilot so the value of the ticket can be added to your taxable income. Atlas calls it "Gateway Basing."

That sucks

Twin Wasp 10-09-2018 09:13 AM

Along with lowest pay rates, lowest guarantee, lowest DH pay and tied for lowest company retirement contributions.

Wings1856 10-09-2018 02:01 PM

Thanks Grundt, This has been one of the most helpful posts on this forum. Nice change.

lineupandhold 10-12-2018 08:59 AM

This is awesome, thanks Grundt.

brn2fly1 10-12-2018 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grundt (Post 2686111)
Make an informed decision and know what youíre getting into.

https://www.pilotcontracts.org/

You have multiple errors on FedEx, UPS and Omni. With the errors is misleading!

gumpscheck 10-13-2018 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brn2fly1 (Post 2690237)
You have multiple errors on FedEx, UPS and Omni. With the errors is misleading!

Be more specific. Otherwise I would have to disregard you as a management/Ford&Harrison troll.

USMCFDX 10-13-2018 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gumpscheck (Post 2690688)
Be more specific. Otherwise I would have to disregard you as a management/Ford&Harrison troll.

Well I said the same thing in the very first post. Why do you want us to do your work for you? There are errors.

Industry Strnd 10-14-2018 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMCFDX (Post 2690700)
Well I said the same thing in the very first post. Why do you want us to do your work for you? There are errors.

That's weird I see the contracts there can anyone point to a specific contract section? Hard to believe thre are errors when not one person has pointed to a specfic contract reference error. I look thru some of the contracts compaired to the chart and can't find any errors. Hard to say there are errors in the contracts!

Industry Strnd 10-14-2018 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gumpscheck (Post 2690688)
Be more specific. Otherwise I would have to disregard you as a management/Ford&Harrison troll.

Now the Atlas study is up compaired to the majors. I'm sure someone will want to dispute the Delta or United rules. Management trying to place
doubt in the facts.
Hard to argue with the ACMI when the contracts are right there. And they are void of common work rules that even regionals have. Can't wait to see seniority lists at acmi get decimated in the next 2-3 years cause the management is too naive and greedy to pay pilots like everyone else is doing!

brn2fly1 10-15-2018 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Industry Strnd (Post 2691385)
That's weird I see the contracts there can anyone point to a specific contract section? Hard to believe thre are errors when not one person has pointed to a specfic contract reference error. I look thru some of the contracts compaired to the chart and can't find any errors. Hard to say there are errors in the contracts!

Iím not doing you work for you! If you canít pay attention to details thatís your problem. There are at least three errors just between FedEx and UPS. Lord knows how many other errors you have on the chart!

brn2fly1 10-15-2018 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Industry Strnd (Post 2691388)
Now the Atlas study is up compaired to the majors. I'm sure someone will want to dispute the Delta or United rules. Management trying to place
doubt in the facts.
Hard to argue with the ACMI when the contracts are right there. And they are void of common work rules that even regionals have. Can't wait to see seniority lists at acmi get decimated in the next 2-3 years cause the management is too naive and greedy to pay pilots like everyone else is doing!

Itís funny how the Atlas Study guide doesnít list one other ACMI carrier in their comparison (Southern doesnít count). It too has multiple errors in it. You guys really need to do a better job when doing your research. Also the article that was pinned to the website about bonus paid to FedEx pilots is incorrect. Those are not bonus. They are part of the sick leave you get paid when you retire.

HercDriver130 10-15-2018 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brn2fly1 (Post 2691434)
Itís funny how the Atlas Study guide doesnít list one other ACMI carrier in their comparison (Southern doesnít count). It too has multiple errors in it. You guys really need to do a better job when doing your research. Also the article that was pinned to the website about bonus paid to FedEx pilots is incorrect. Those are not bonus. They are part of the sick leave you get paid when you retire.

EXACTLY they seem to think their Peers where purple and brown or fly Delta or United jets....get a grip.

BoilerUP 10-15-2018 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoilerUP (Post 2686317)
Some of the chartís UPS data is transposed with FDX, perdiem and guarantee and such.

Sometimes I requote myself from Post #10 in this thread...

JonnyKnoxville 10-15-2018 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HercDriver130 (Post 2691441)
EXACTLY they seem to think their Peers where purple and brown or fly Delta or United jets....get a grip.

The truck driver mentality is exactly why most of the Atlas guys were thinking good riddance when you left our union. If you somehow do not see or believe that ATSG, Atlas/Southern, and Kalitta are not in direct competition with UPS and FedEx, then I think we should all be telling you to get a grip.

Whether you realize it or not, Amazon and DHL are using our airlines to go after UPS and FedEx similar to how Southwest went after domestic market share of American, Delta, and United throughout the 1980s and 1990s. If you still don't believe it, I have a sort facility being built in CVG bigger than FedEx in MEM and UPS in SDF combined to sell you.

The ABX and Atlas/Southern pilots do not find it acceptable to allow management to exploit our cheap labor in order to take away high-paying quality jobs at FedEx and UPS. We will continue to fight for industry standard, not just truck driver standard.

JonnyKnoxville 10-15-2018 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brn2fly1 (Post 2691434)
Itís funny how the Atlas Study guide doesnít list one other ACMI carrier in their comparison (Southern doesnít count). It too has multiple errors in it. You guys really need to do a better job when doing your research. Also the article that was pinned to the website about bonus paid to FedEx pilots is incorrect. Those are not bonus. They are part of the sick leave you get paid when you retire.

All of the data for the Atlas Contract Comparison was verified with your union. Since you have already stated that you have no interest in helping correct any errors you see, it looks like you will have to take it up with ALPA.

brn2fly1 10-15-2018 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyKnoxville (Post 2691460)
All of the data for the Atlas Contract Comparison was verified with your union. Since you have already stated that you have no interest in helping correct any errors you see, it looks like you will have to take it up with ALPA.

Wow, 1224 knows everything! Actually they are the worst union Iíve belonged too. You have no clue how far your contract comparison is off.


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