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Old 10-29-2019, 08:12 AM
  #441  
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Originally Posted by sandman22 View Post
So AAWW wants to drastically shrink their company to that of only an aircraft leasing company and give all of their airline business to companies like Kalitta? What kind of a management team does this? Do they not like making money? They'd prefer to make a lot less? This doesn't make any sense. Though I agree their actions are proving that they seem to prefer to make less money.
What kind of management team does this? ATSG. Welcome to temper tantrum management where the price of winning is..management will win at all cost! ATSG owns 1/3 of all converted 767 freight aircraft in the world (90+) and its competitors fly 1/2 of them. It's been said before..this would be a great airline (ABX) if we could get rid of the pilots. AAWW is actually late to the game. ATSG has been using this business model for years..
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Old 10-29-2019, 08:38 AM
  #442  
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Originally Posted by DC8DRIVER View Post
I think you are gravely mistaken if you think that anyone other than the management of Atlas can change the outcome of this catastrophe. AAWW is headed out of the airline business and will become nothing more than a leasing company and we couldn't stop them even if we said we'd fly for free. They have driven this ship beyond the point of no return.
I agree with most but not all of this. I agree that our safety problems are rooted primarily in management decisions. I disagree that only management can drive change. When we believe this, we also rationalize inaction on our part. I can't see any way to justify inaction.

A LOSA proposal to management and announced to the crew would put the onus on management to refuse a proposed safety improvement. Moreover it would be the beginning of a rapprochement between parties, at least on safety issues. There's no shortage of people across the board who want to see improvements. This may create the cover for personnel on both sides to get working on the improvements we need. So we can apply pressure while still mending bonds here.

We are in a unique period of opportunity to improve and build-up this place. Regulators at various FSDOs are looking for ways to legitimize themselves right now. We have a bloody mandate to improve from GTI3591. Our executives could seize upon this to justify their commitment to safety. Our new local, 2750, could use this as a way to prove they're capable of doing something for the crews. So everyone's got a real incentive to deliver a result here. Deploying a LOSA program would be an easy way for all of us to get a win and move collectively in a decent direction.

All we have to do is start working. Just do something.
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Old 10-29-2019, 08:41 AM
  #443  
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One more thing:
I don't fault individuals when I say "Just do something". I think our authorities are distributed in a top-heavy way across both organizations. So lots of great people spend most of their time waiting for somebody above them to give them a nod to move. Meanwhile the people in high places are overwhelmed with information and can't spin enough plates.

The people aren't the problem. It's the connections and structures between us that are creating problems. We can solve these issues without chopping people's heads off.
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Old 10-29-2019, 12:57 PM
  #444  
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Originally Posted by Elevation View Post
I agree with most but not all of this. I agree that our safety problems are rooted primarily in management decisions. I disagree that only management can drive change. When we believe this, we also rationalize inaction on our part. I can't see any way to justify inaction.

A LOSA proposal to management and announced to the crew would put the onus on management to refuse a proposed safety improvement. Moreover it would be the beginning of a rapprochement between parties, at least on safety issues. There's no shortage of people across the board who want to see improvements. This may create the cover for personnel on both sides to get working on the improvements we need. So we can apply pressure while still mending bonds here.

We are in a unique period of opportunity to improve and build-up this place. Regulators at various FSDOs are looking for ways to legitimize themselves right now. We have a bloody mandate to improve from GTI3591. Our executives could seize upon this to justify their commitment to safety. Our new local, 2750, could use this as a way to prove they're capable of doing something for the crews. So everyone's got a real incentive to deliver a result here. Deploying a LOSA program would be an easy way for all of us to get a win and move collectively in a decent direction.

All we have to do is start working. Just do something.
Yes, it would be good if the union and the company could agree on LOSA, or AQP, or anything really.

Unfortunately, I am afraid that the company is headed in a different direction and, despite all the memos from V.P.'s and home sent letters on high quality stationary, their actions betray their rhetoric. AAWW is simply delaying our contract in order to complete the assembly of the teams that will be picking up the pieces of Atlas Air after they get done carving up the carcass of what used to be a pretty good airline.

Just look at their actions ... not their words. Virtually everything they have done thus far is a delay tactic. The law suits. The delays. The drawn out negotiations where they don't even try to hide their distain for the process that is simply, in their minds, a waste of their time. As they assemble Amazon, DHL, and probably others to pick over the carcass, the pilot group is, to them, a terminal patient on their death bed and they don't have the balls to look us in the eye as we lay there oblivious to the fatal disease of corporate greed that they have infected us with.

I used to fly for the original DHL airline: DHL Airways, Inc. (aka Astar Air Cargo in later years). When the Germans acquired controlling interest in DHL and repurchased 49% of the stock in our U.S. based airline, we all thought that we would finally be managed by adults and would have a future career that we could count on because of their ownership.

In 2011, DHL Airways/Astar Air Cargo ceased operations and went out of business casting 500+ pilots to the street. Our flying went to a myriad of ACMI carriers and we were SOL. Don't think for one minute that this is not the most likely outcome of our situation. As I said, one need look no further than the actions of Atlas management to see their strong push toward the Titan side of the house and an ultimate future in leasing airplanes instead of dealing with those pesky pilots. Once rid of us, they can supply planes to a host of pop up low cost freight carriers (LLFC's) and laugh all the way to the bank and there is nothing that you or I or any union could do about it.

So, yes, it would be nice to see some cooperation from the company in any sort of meaningful way, but at this point, their actions speak much louder than their words.
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Old 10-29-2019, 01:14 PM
  #445  
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Originally Posted by DC8DRIVER View Post
Yes, it would be good if the union and the company could agree on LOSA, or AQP, or anything really.

Unfortunately, I am afraid that the company is headed in a different direction and, despite all the memos from V.P.'s and home sent letters on high quality stationary, their actions betray their rhetoric. AAWW is simply delaying our contract in order to complete the assembly of the teams that will be picking up the pieces of Atlas Air after they get done carving up the carcass of what used to be a pretty good airline.

Just look at their actions ... not their words. Virtually everything they have done thus far is a delay tactic. The law suits. The delays. The drawn out negotiations where they don't even try to hide their distain for the process that is simply, in their minds, a waste of their time. As they assemble Amazon, DHL, and probably others to pick over the carcass, the pilot group is, to them, a terminal patient on their death bed and they don't have the balls to look us in the eye as we lay there oblivious to the fatal disease of corporate greed that they have infected us with.

I used to fly for the original DHL airline: DHL Airways, Inc. (aka Astar Air Cargo in later years). When the Germans acquired controlling interest in DHL and repurchased 49% of the stock in our U.S. based airline, we all thought that we would finally be managed by adults and would have a future career that we could count on because of their ownership.

In 2011, DHL Airways/Astar Air Cargo ceased operations and went out of business casting 500+ pilots to the street. Our flying went to a myriad of ACMI carriers and we were SOL. Don't think for one minute that this is not the most likely outcome of our situation. As I said, one need look no further than the actions of Atlas management to see their strong push toward the Titan side of the house and an ultimate future in leasing airplanes instead of dealing with those pesky pilots. Once rid of us, they can supply planes to a host of pop up low cost freight carriers (LLFC's) and laugh all the way to the bank and there is nothing that you or I or any union could do about it.

So, yes, it would be nice to see some cooperation from the company in any sort of meaningful way, but at this point, their actions speak much louder than their words.
Agreed. But we can't just let up. Crewing is a large source of Holding's revenue above and beyond leasing. So I think a survivable airline is in their interests. Even if it would be easier to divest themselves of all pilots, that would be a hard sell the shareholders, the SEC, etc.

Regardless of these points, we have to act like we're going to be flying in two years' time. So we have to push for the safety systems we currently lack. It takes a long time to build the momentum necessary to deliver safety improvements, so we really need to seize on the opportunities we have now. If that won't begin in the company, we begin in the union. Regardless, we have to got to work on this.
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Old 10-29-2019, 03:51 PM
  #446  
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Originally Posted by Elevation View Post
Agreed. But we can't just let up. Crewing is a large source of Holding's revenue above and beyond leasing. So I think a survivable airline is in their interests. Even if it would be easier to divest themselves of all pilots, that would be a hard sell the shareholders, the SEC, etc.

Regardless of these points, we have to act like we're going to be flying in two years' time. So we have to push for the safety systems we currently lack. It takes a long time to build the momentum necessary to deliver safety improvements, so we really need to seize on the opportunities we have now. If that won't begin in the company, we begin in the union. Regardless, we have to got to work on this.
Agreed. If we are going down, we should go down swinging.
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Old 10-29-2019, 06:28 PM
  #447  
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Mgmt is being mgmt. I have no doubt the airlines before us - this pilots said the same things. We are done, going out of business - blah blah blah.

It’s the natural course of contract negotiations. They aren’t pretty, they aren’t fun, nor clean.

I have no doubt the company can get a cheaper cba today than a year ago or even 2. Pilots are worn down, and we want it over with it.

Right wrong or indifferent, it’s basic human philosophy- no different than a messy divorce.

Fly the CBA, what will be will be...

We all need this CBA done.
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Old 10-30-2019, 06:22 AM
  #448  
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Originally Posted by boeingdvr View Post
Mgmt is being mgmt. I have no doubt the airlines before us - this pilots said the same things. We are done, going out of business - blah blah blah.

It’s the natural course of contract negotiations. They aren’t pretty, they aren’t fun, nor clean.

I have no doubt the company can get a cheaper cba today than a year ago or even 2. Pilots are worn down, and we want it over with it.

Right wrong or indifferent, it’s basic human philosophy- no different than a messy divorce.

Fly the CBA, what will be will be...

We all need this CBA done.
HELL NO !

Either they give us a really good CBA or let this POS airline burn to the ground. With each passing day my hatred for the senior management of this ****hole grows.

Management blames labor unrest for their pathetic performance. If anything the pilots have been neutered by the courts and arbi-traitors.

They will see what real labor unrest is if they impose an arbi-traitor CBA on us.
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Old 10-30-2019, 07:31 AM
  #449  
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Originally Posted by Screwed View Post
HELL NO !

Either they give us a really good CBA or let this POS airline burn to the ground. With each passing day my hatred for the senior management of this ****hole grows.

Management blames labor unrest for their pathetic performance. If anything the pilots have been neutered by the courts and arbi-traitors.

They will see what real labor unrest is if they impose an arbi-traitor CBA on us.
Check your blood pressure. A little yoga and some anger management courses maybe prescribed.
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Old 10-30-2019, 09:15 AM
  #450  
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Originally Posted by Bungalow View Post
Check your blood pressure. A little yoga and some anger management courses maybe prescribed.
I fully understand his frustration. His career is being destroyed.
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