Elevation

Doesn't this apply to any company, though? Pan Am faltered after Jusn Trippe, but SWA did well after Herb Kelleher stepped aside. So the problem isn't that the founder dies or leaves; that happens everywhere. The problem is that successors don't have the company's or shareholder's welfare in mind.

Given that we have management with short term goals, what do we do about it?

Bungalow

Your managers arguably, have made poor business decisions and you shouldn’t have to subsidize those with your paycheck. Agreed.

You arguably, made a poor decision by electing to work at Atlas. Your managers are not responsible to subsidize your poor decision with a larger paycheck , anymore than you’re obligated to subsidize theirs.

They are free to run their business anyway they see fit.
You are free to seek employment anyplace you choose.

How’s that for fairness?

DC8DRIVER

Fairness between a company and an employee would be a fair days work for a fair wage.

Atlas pilots put in much more than a "fair days work" for the compensation package they receive.

It is the company that refuses to balance the equation. Also, the company is not free to run the business any way they see fit. They have to comply with governmental regulations and they have to abide by our contract (which they frequently do not).

And in case you hadn't noticed, many are seeking employment elsewhere. Nearly 200 in the last 12 months alone.

Bungalow

With all due respect Sir, neither you nor I get to define what a “ fair days work or a fair wage is”. Market forces do that.

I never suggested Atlas is free to disregard government regulations, just that they are free to make their business decisions as they see fit. I stand by that argument.

As for the pilots 200 seeking employment somewhere else, they’ve exercised their right and I applaud them.
Based on what the working conditions appear to be at Atlas, one would expect the number to be much higher.

Elevation

I think there are a lot of underlying assumptions being made here which don't hold up to scrutiny. First, we talk about management in terms of an "us versus them" type of struggle. This is a simplification made to ease other discussions. This simplification can lead to some of faults you're highlighting.

We, the pilots, want this company to succeed. To this end we want to see better decisions made. Regardless of what is said on this forum, we genuinely want to see Atlas continue to grow and continue to survive. That can't happen if we don't offer compensation sufficient to recruit and retain the talent we need to sustain our growth. By similar token, it takes compliance and improvement of safety/training/admin to sustain growth. Oversimplifications made in these forums may convince some folks we want to see this whole endeavor burn unless we get our way. That's not the case.

We can talk about how the 10-Ks show that we've tripled our fleet and operations while only doubling our maintenance spending and non-flying personnel. That doesn't create the vivid, some would say lurid images that get people's attention and drives a discussion.

In reality, we're worried about whether this place can survive. Taking the offers we get now will just delay our demise a few years rather than position us for survival, growth and success over the next few decades. So we're working to help, rather than hinder our shareholders and executives. We want us all, including our managers that we deride so much, to do well and succeed. A riding tide lifts all boats, etc.

We're really trying to bring reality to our executives' decision process.

Your other point about the numbers of pilots leaving or not ignores the opportunity cost of changing jobs. In this industry, individual pilots rapidly become personally invested in these positions. The reality is a 40-something 7N7 captain with children is less professionally mobile than a 20-something first officer. So there's nuance in the numbers that we're not considering.

Elevation

Sorry for such a wordy post. I sucked at editing it down. I figured a big mess would preserve the message. Hopefully it worked.

Bungalow

Fair enough.

Turbine1

In 12 months of classes every 3 weeks ( except for 4th qtr when it's all hands on deck ) Atlas has only grown the seniority list by 44 pilots.

Incredibly Southern has tripled that number added at even worse pay. Apparently the low entry bar of a restricted ATP and promise of a quick upgrade is incentive enough to work at sub regional wages for as long as it takes to upgrade and move on.

That's all management needs to stonewall the pilot group for years to come, until they fragment AAWH and sell or lease off the fleet and leave 2150 pilots to start over.

zerozero

I thought you made another insightful and thoughtful post.

I would only add one thing on the idea of whether or not the pilots want to burn the place down if we don't get our way.

I'm not personally bothered by this outrageous sentiment. What bothers me more is the possibility that Atlas management may be hell bent on burning it down themselves!

Sometimes I think we give ourselves (as pilots) too much credit.

DC8DRIVER

In case you didn't open the previously attached link, I'll put it here again.

Contract Comparison | AtlasFacts.org

As you can see if you want to look, a "fair days work or a fair wage" has already been defined by virtually every comparable airline outside of Atlas. So the market has already defined this for us. If, for some reason, you are having difficulty with this concept, I can't help you any more than this.

"You can lead a horse to water..."

And, as was said in a previous post, no one WANTS to burn this place down. However, Atlas pilots are done putting out the fires that management starts. To suggest that prospects don't want to work at Atlas because of what is posted on APC is a ridiculous position. Atlas corporate has done virtually everything possible to poison the water here by resorting to scorched earth tactics. Suing their own pilot group, contract violations, legal maneuvers, and withdrawing from any sort of productive contract negotiations combined with weak or non-existant work rules and bottom of the industry pay make Atlas virtually the last place a new hire would want to work.