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Old 11-16-2019, 06:03 PM
  #511  
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Originally Posted by Elevation View Post
Hello All,

I've been crunching safety numbers pretty hard. Atlas has some serious safety challenges, but it's not the quality of incoming pilots that is the problem.

The quality of pilots at the various Amazon contracting carriers doesn't vary as much as you think. Atlas has never made it to an average departures/accident in excess of 130000. This was the case when Atlas paid more than most places. Right now Atlas is around 84000 departures/accident.

To drive this point home ABX is performing more safely than Delta Airlines. The same pilot labor market pressures exist there. In fact, ABX was outperforming FedEx until 2013.

The real story of safety is more damning and less sexy. We are all variations on the same shade of average. The difference is training, safety and administrative infrastructure. None of us are good enough to think were able to out fly or out-command the threats that are building here.

The numbers also dont indicate better or worse pilots at different carriers. Fed Ex dramatically improved in performance in the early 2010s after implementing new programs. They had been a destination for many pilots for about ten years before that. It will take a real, coordinated effort to head off this coming accident at Atlas.

As for incendiary comments, I think it's entirely appropriate to discuss the facts. All of us are filing ASAPs, writing reports and joining safety organizations. No results are forthcoming.

Discussing the facts is appropriate. We haven't improved and we're proposing cuts to mx spending after we have already decreased departure and airframe specific maintenance spending by 33% over the last ten years.

I think another point worth considering is that the strain we're putting our system under for Amazon is exposing unrelated customers to risk. 3591 could have just as easily been an AMC flight with troops. The stresses are also materializing in our flights in Europe and Asia. In a real sense the push to staff cheap, domestic operations may be a factor when we crash in Taipei or Frankfurt.
Do you have a solution?
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Old 11-17-2019, 01:41 AM
  #512  
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Originally Posted by JackStraw View Post
Do you have a solution?
Some. I've mentioned LOSA, AQP and FOQA. Essentially do what the better companies do.

We also need a top-down company-wide acknowledgement of our safety problems. No corrections will occur before we acknowledge our problems.

Relationships between the company and union have become toxic. I'd also propose a taskforce that's got the ability to make binding directives at any level within the company.
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Old 11-17-2019, 06:52 AM
  #513  
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Originally Posted by Elevation View Post
Some. I've mentioned LOSA, AQP and FOQA. Essentially do what the better companies do.

We also need a top-down company-wide acknowledgement of our safety problems. No corrections will occur before we acknowledge our problems.

Relationships between the company and union have become toxic. I'd also propose a taskforce that's got the ability to make binding directives at any level within the company.
Well gee-golly Professor why didn't any of us think of that!

All of that requires the company to participate. They refuse to do anything above the minimum legal requirement so the matter is closed.
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Old 11-17-2019, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by iPilot View Post
Well gee-golly Professor why didn't any of us think of that!

All of that requires the company to participate. They refuse to do anything above the minimum legal requirement so the matter is closed.
Well, no it's not. We drive the company to participate through pressure. Pressure comes from the use of all avenues of approach which includes discussions here.

Saying "The company isn't participating so it's a moot point and the matter is closed." resigns us to accepting the situation as is. As is we are approaching another crash.

So the solutions are obvious. The problem is driving the company and, to a lesser degree, the union to act. We can and should be doing more to attack this threat.

If you're frustrated with me stating obvious solutions, that's good. Turn that frustration to moving instructors, managers and chairs to get up and act.

People beyond our pilots and company are seeing this. Gradually, more folk will want to avoid being on the bloody side of our inaction come the next crash. They'll want this if only to protect their reputation and respective egos. Transparency will set the incentives to get our safety act together.
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Old 11-17-2019, 07:58 AM
  #515  
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Pretty sure everyone has been pressuring the company on this as much as they can. I’m not sure what more you’re asking the union or the pilots to do. I mean the union said in interviews a crash was coming, one happened, and still nothing. At some point you just need to admit that management is simply not going to change their mind until they’re required to by law.
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Old 11-17-2019, 08:21 AM
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“Safety is our number one priority”... yeah right behind cutting costs and keeping the pilot group in their place. Money talk and bs walks. It’s embarrassing how far this management team has let things spiral out of control.
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Old 11-17-2019, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by iPilot View Post
Pretty sure everyone has been pressuring the company on this as much as they can. I’m not sure what more you’re asking the union or the pilots to do. I mean the union said in interviews a crash was coming, one happened, and still nothing. At some point you just need to admit that management is simply not going to change their mind until they’re required to by law.
I get the sentiment. It's easy to feel like we have exhausted our options, especially when we are approaching a year after 3591 with no improvement. It's telling that we nearly never see our system chief pilot or anyone above him riding on their own planes. Our flights would be great to get him between MIA, CVG, etc. Looking at these things just drains the drive out of us.

I agree our leadership hasn't faced reality. They still insist we are safe (although if they did believe thate we would see them on our planes from time to time.).

I strongly disagree that we have exhausted our options. We could formally invite the company to take part in a LOSA program. That would put them in the position of providing an improvement or publicly resisting a proven safety measure. So far we haven't done this. That's just one example of ways to apply pressure toward solutions which we haven't played yet.

So you are right to be frustrated. I disagree with giving up on this. We owe it to each other to fight. We can't be defeatist about flight safety here.

As individual pilots there is more we can do too. File reports. Building the paper trail on these incrementally reduces deniability on the part of leadership when the next crash happens. Eventually the risk to the people in charge will alter their incentives, and they will announce safety efforts with great fanfare.
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Old 11-17-2019, 10:11 AM
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Hit em where they ain't until we get a safe airline. That's my point.
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Old 11-17-2019, 12:40 PM
  #519  
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I hate to stick my K4 nose is this discussion and I only point this out for information purposes

I have no idea how much safer it makes the operation but we have had AQP and FOQA for almost 10 years and are in the process of implementing LOSA

If we can do it - its quite obvious Atlas could institute these programs if they wanted to - why they wont even consider it is befalling

We over here really do wish you guys over there all the best
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Old 11-17-2019, 04:53 PM
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What are some of the routes that southern 737 amazon planes fly? All night flying? Day trips or overnights? Thanks!
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