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-   -   Atlas pilots deserve better? Teamsters 1224 v (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/atlas-polar/118800-atlas-pilots-deserve-better-teamsters-1224-v.html)

JonnyKnoxville 12-26-2018 05:32 PM


Originally Posted by JackStraw (Post 2731718)
The question soon will be ‘was the fight for Section 6 rights be worth it in the end’. If the outcome is a loss for the Atlas Exco there will be a lot of questions that need to be answered; specifically ‘how much did we lose over this time and why did you listen to lawyers who only benefited from this drawn-out process’.

Then again, if the judge rules in IBT’s favor it’s a massive win and will forever change the culture of the company for the better.

Make no mistake, management's amalgamation plan has never been about taking an alternative path. It has been a conduit for delay. Win or lose, management will only negotiate the next CBA when they have no other choice but to do so. Furthermore, allowing the amalgamation path to take place without a fight ensures zero future at this airline. IF management wins both of the arbitrations, there is no longer any point in ever thinking this will be anything other than the bottom feeder of the industry where management buys airline after airline to perpetually avoid all negotiations. Giving up on this fight for a false perception of a quicker path is giving up on your career.

Elevation 12-26-2018 07:00 PM

Swapping unions would be a really bad idea right now. ALPA has some advantages over IBT, but IBT has some advantages over ALPA too.

scrupulous 12-26-2018 11:02 PM


Originally Posted by Elevation (Post 2731834)
Swapping unions would be a really bad idea right now.


Yes it would be. While most of our problems lie with our current leadership and their failed tactics that are similar repeats of the past merger. I do have some miss givings of the Teamsters, going back to ALPA would be way worse. As a matter of fact, our current EXCO Chair was pro ALPA and pro non-merger back in the day on the first one. Spent most of his time giving lobbying parties to ALPA leadership while his nose was parking neatly in their posteriors to keep the merger from happening despite what he says today. If he had a choice, we would still be battling it out but the desertification of ALPA and the single carrier NMB determination fixed that.

Here is what ALPA said about us ACMI carriers as they did everything to burn us at Atlas while taking our dues money.

I've also noted an uptick by the new hires that they are tired of being blamed as the crux of the problem by our leadership. Tired of being asked when they are going to leave etc and they feel are blamed somehow to the ongoing problems the current campaign the EXCO is running of dissuading new hires to come here to gain leverage at the table. A spin off of the "complete operational merger" preached to the Polar guys back in those days they stood on to log jamb everything. With our turn over and the leaderships current tactics, they may only be in office for so long. Much how they got in under the last wave of new hires making promises they couldn't keep.

JonnyKnoxville 12-27-2018 01:11 AM


Originally Posted by scrupulous (Post 2731901)
Yes it would be. While most of our problems lie with our current leadership and their failed tactics that are similar repeats of the past merger. I do have some miss givings of the Teamsters, going back to ALPA would be way worse. As a matter of fact, our current EXCO Chair was pro ALPA and pro non-merger back in the day on the first one. Spent most of his time giving lobbying parties to ALPA leadership while his nose was parking neatly in their posteriors to keep the merger from happening despite what he says today. If he had a choice, we would still be battling it out but the desertification of ALPA and the single carrier NMB determination fixed that.

Here is what ALPA said about us ACMI carriers as they did everything to burn us at Atlas while taking our dues money.

I've also noted an uptick by the new hires that they are tired of being blamed as the crux of the problem by our leadership. Tired of being asked when they are going to leave etc and they feel are blamed somehow to the ongoing problems the current campaign the EXCO is running of dissuading new hires to come here to gain leverage at the table. A spin off of the "complete operational merger" preached to the Polar guys back in those days they stood on to log jamb everything. With our turn over and the leaderships current tactics, they may only be in office for so long. Much how they got in under the last wave of new hires making promises they couldn't keep.

Oh, sudden impact, how we have missed you and your theories.

maxjet 12-27-2018 04:52 AM


Originally Posted by JonnyKnoxville (Post 2731915)
Oh, sudden impact, how we have missed you and your theories.

I do agree with his point that you cannot change unions. Atlas is the one carrier that should never change unions. They ARE 1224. It doesn’t get any better than this. Other locals paying for some of their expenses and they are in complete control of their destiny. What might need to change is the strategy. I write might because this internet mess is hopefully just an illusion perpetrated by an above average negotiation team. At times it does seem a little ham handed.

You need to always trust your negotiating committee regardless as to how things appear to be. What do you have to lose? Changing things at this point could only guarantee one thing. A longer negotiation. I wish them well and hope they kick ass.

Itsajob 12-27-2018 05:16 AM

ALPA isn’t going to do anything more for you guys than any other union. ALPA National is all about the money, their money. They love to collect dues and talk about standing firm, but when it’s actually time to take a stand they tuck tail and run. They were all talk leading up to the Polar strike until the pilots got released. Once they realized that they were going to have to spend more money than they would recover from such a small group they suddenly encouraged the pilots to take the companies offer. That offer was worse than the contract that they were trying to replace. The problems at Atlas are with who you have to negotiate with. I can’t speak to who you have in your union trying to negotiate with them since I’m not there. If you’re not happy with their methods I’d bet that you’d be better off replacing individual negotiators than replacing the IBT with something else.

iPilot 12-27-2018 08:57 AM

Its not like ALPA will airlift a crack team into the seniority list handing us expert MECs and negotiating teams. Regardless of affiliation an airline union is simply made up of pilots on its seniority list.

If you're thinking ALPA national will do anything more than Teamsters national you're deluding yourself. If you want a better union it's up to you, the member.

SaltyDog 12-27-2018 10:55 AM


Originally Posted by deus ex machina (Post 2730556)

Weak unions like SWAPA, IPA and IBT are easy for the company to manipulate and delay...

Enjoy....


....the scourge.

LOL
and pray tell how does ALPA prevent management tricks to manipulate and delay under the RLA that these other unions do not?
I'm not an ALPA detractor, far from it, they have produced great things for pilots, but your comments suggest a partisan view and ignores the contributions of other pilot unions that are successful for all of us too.
Oh, and somehow the APA must be terrific as you didn't disparage those fine folks and think they are a weak union. Perhaps folks can explore APA success. :D

Almost There 12-27-2018 12:51 PM


Originally Posted by iPilot (Post 2732111)
Its not like ALPA will airlift a crack team into the seniority list handing us expert MECs and negotiating teams. Regardless of affiliation an airline union is simply made up of pilots on its seniority list.

If you're thinking ALPA national will do anything more than Teamsters national you're deluding yourself. If you want a better union it's up to you, the member.

So True! Could not agree more!

Globemaster2827 12-27-2018 01:16 PM


Originally Posted by iPilot (Post 2732111)
Its not like ALPA will airlift a crack team into the seniority list handing us expert MECs and negotiating teams. Regardless of affiliation an airline union is simply made up of pilots on its seniority list.

If you're thinking ALPA national will do anything more than Teamsters national you're deluding yourself. If you want a better union it's up to you, the member.

Nobody wants to look at them-self in the mirror after sprinting through an airport to make their next commercial connection on work day 28 of their current month and realize that they are a Teamster.... Or Alpa... Or IPA... Isn't it easier to just fail and blame someone else? The "teamsters UNION" is made up of its members.

Good post.


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