Atlas pilots deserve better? Teamsters 1224 v
12-29-2018, 09:26 AM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Retired
Posts: 651
Originally Posted by JonnyKnoxville
When did the $75 million carve-out from profit sharing start? .
That said, the profit sharing was never seen as a substitute for pay rates. And many of us were surprised that it ended up back in the 2011 contract, since by then the holding company structure was firmly in place.
12-29-2018, 09:28 AM
#72
On Reserve
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Position: E175
Posts: 14
interview jan 14/15/16-miami
hello guys !
i got an interview with atlas jan- 15 th 2019.
they got intervies on 14 /15/16 of january
any idea ;what equipment they are hiring these days 747/767?
i got an interview with atlas jan- 15 th 2019.
they got intervies on 14 /15/16 of january
any idea ;what equipment they are hiring these days 747/767?
Last edited by gurugee; 12-29-2018 at 09:57 AM.
12-29-2018, 09:32 AM
#73
Polyester Pilot
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: 777 CA
Posts: 510
I'm going to just go and grab some popcorn and a beer. Please don't start abusing this guy until I get back.
12-29-2018, 10:04 AM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 116
Originally Posted by gurugee
hello guys !
i got an interview with atlas jan- 15 th 2019.
they got intervies on 14 /15/16 of january
any idea ;what equipment they are hiring these days 747/767?
i got an interview with atlas jan- 15 th 2019.
they got intervies on 14 /15/16 of january
any idea ;what equipment they are hiring these days 747/767?
Welcome to the party F&H. MY EXCO SPEAKS FOR ME!
12-29-2018, 10:11 AM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 611
Originally Posted by gurugee
hello guys !
i got an interview with atlas jan- 15 th 2019.
they got intervies on 14 /15/16 of january
any idea ;what equipment they are hiring these days 747/767?
i got an interview with atlas jan- 15 th 2019.
they got intervies on 14 /15/16 of january
any idea ;what equipment they are hiring these days 747/767?
We have hired a tremendous amount of pilots in the past few years, so upgrade times will be increasing rather significantly as many first officers on the list are unfortunately starting to see.
The next CBA, despite what you were probably told by recruiters, is potentially still years from coming to fruition.
Pay: Plan on $1,600 for your first four months, and $3,980 total gross (before deductions) compensation per a month after that for your first year.
Second Year B767
Plan on $5208 a month total gross (before deductions) compensation
Second Year B747
Plan on $6200 a month total gross (before deductions) compensation
Most RJ Captains who come here find out that they took a pay cut from their left seat RJ job that they won't make back until they upgrade.
Oh, and you will be gone 18-19 days a month for work. (17 day trip plus travel)
12-29-2018, 10:26 AM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 666
Originally Posted by gurugee
hello guys !
i got an interview with atlas jan- 15 th 2019.
they got intervies on 14 /15/16 of january
any idea ;what equipment they are hiring these days 747/767?
i got an interview with atlas jan- 15 th 2019.
they got intervies on 14 /15/16 of january
any idea ;what equipment they are hiring these days 747/767?
PM me if you have other questions.
12-29-2018, 10:27 AM
#77
On Reserve
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Position: E175
Posts: 14
thank you very much for the info.
12-29-2018, 10:29 AM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2011
Posts: 182
Originally Posted by 742Dash
I stand corrected with regard to the carve-out.
That said, the profit sharing was never seen as a substitute for pay rates. And many of us were surprised that it ended up back in the 2011 contract, since by then the holding company structure was firmly in place.
That said, the profit sharing was never seen as a substitute for pay rates. And many of us were surprised that it ended up back in the 2011 contract, since by then the holding company structure was firmly in place.
Originally Posted by Bobby U
"Profit sharing has been nice but it is fleeting. This new contract provides the profit sharing money in fixed and growing payrates, so the money we have been getting from profit sharing is now guaranteed in our paychecks."
And he was right. And we were happy. And the pilots generally high-fived each other for being in the right place at the right time. Ohhhh what a difference a few years makes.
The current leadership knows that the section 6 process will result in a MUCH better contract than the section 1 process.
The best way to get the best contract is section 6. The second best way to get the best contract is the passage of time, as the rising tide around us will benefit our new CBA no matter how we get there. The open question is:
- How much will the passage of time cost us while we are still operating under the 2011 CBA?
We each will have to decide as individuals how much appetite we have for a prolonged process vs. taking a simple payrate increase right now. The company will offer this payrate increase publicly sometime in the next several months. Will you be smiling (the payrates will be very good)? Or will you accept lower pay for longer to get to the real pot of gold, and say "My negotiating committee speaks for me"?
How many of us are in it for the long run? How many of us are in it just for time-in-type and trying to move on? Who is more likely to stand firm, patiently?
The company has played their cards very well so far. By my math they are planning to hire 700+ pilots in 2019, which will sustain their growth even if our attrition triples. They have demonstrated that they are willing to wait it out. Are we?
2019 will be an interesting year.
Either way, I think we can put to bed the question of switching IBT to ALPA or anything else. Of all the choices we have... that one would be catastrophic right now. But it wouldn't be the first time that pilots have been short sighted.
12-29-2018, 07:02 PM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 611
Originally Posted by CallmeJB
Tell that to Bob U (Union leadership) at the 2011 contract road show in the Miami Marriott. Right from his mouth:
He went on to explain how the Section 1 process gave the union limited leverage to negotiate new language, and that we should be pleased the the *Company's recent profitability* has resulted in us being able to secure a contract with pay north of $200/hour.
And he was right. And we were happy. And the pilots generally high-fived each other for being in the right place at the right time. Ohhhh what a difference a few years makes.
The current leadership knows that the section 6 process will result in a MUCH better contract than the section 1 process.
The best way to get the best contract is section 6. The second best way to get the best contract is the passage of time, as the rising tide around us will benefit our new CBA no matter how we get there. The open question is:
We each will have to decide as individuals how much appetite we have for a prolonged process vs. taking a simple payrate increase right now. The company will offer this payrate increase publicly sometime in the next several months. Will you be smiling (the payrates will be very good)? Or will you accept lower pay for longer to get to the real pot of gold, and say "My negotiating committee speaks for me"?
How many of us are in it for the long run? How many of us are in it just for time-in-type and trying to move on? Who is more likely to stand firm, patiently?
The company has played their cards very well so far. By my math they are planning to hire 700+ pilots in 2019, which will sustain their growth even if our attrition triples. They have demonstrated that they are willing to wait it out. Are we?
2019 will be an interesting year.
Either way, I think we can put to bed the question of switching IBT to ALPA or anything else. Of all the choices we have... that one would be catastrophic right now. But it wouldn't be the first time that pilots have been short sighted.
He went on to explain how the Section 1 process gave the union limited leverage to negotiate new language, and that we should be pleased the the *Company's recent profitability* has resulted in us being able to secure a contract with pay north of $200/hour.
And he was right. And we were happy. And the pilots generally high-fived each other for being in the right place at the right time. Ohhhh what a difference a few years makes.
The current leadership knows that the section 6 process will result in a MUCH better contract than the section 1 process.
The best way to get the best contract is section 6. The second best way to get the best contract is the passage of time, as the rising tide around us will benefit our new CBA no matter how we get there. The open question is:
- How much will the passage of time cost us while we are still operating under the 2011 CBA?
We each will have to decide as individuals how much appetite we have for a prolonged process vs. taking a simple payrate increase right now. The company will offer this payrate increase publicly sometime in the next several months. Will you be smiling (the payrates will be very good)? Or will you accept lower pay for longer to get to the real pot of gold, and say "My negotiating committee speaks for me"?
How many of us are in it for the long run? How many of us are in it just for time-in-type and trying to move on? Who is more likely to stand firm, patiently?
The company has played their cards very well so far. By my math they are planning to hire 700+ pilots in 2019, which will sustain their growth even if our attrition triples. They have demonstrated that they are willing to wait it out. Are we?
2019 will be an interesting year.
Either way, I think we can put to bed the question of switching IBT to ALPA or anything else. Of all the choices we have... that one would be catastrophic right now. But it wouldn't be the first time that pilots have been short sighted.
12-29-2018, 11:29 PM
#80
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 95
[QUOTE=nitefr8dog;2733129]
They actually own a number of the aircraft that are then leased to and flown by ACMI carriers. They lease the A/C to ACMI companies and pay them to manage them under those certificates like Atlas/Polar/ABX/Astar/etc. When they are bad for one reason or the other they take them from one carrier and move the A/C to another carrier along with the work to another carrier. I think Comair was similar in which Knoxville hails from. They can also just cancel for lack of performance and give the work to someone else to include aircraft the carriers own and operate for Amazon/DHL. They do this just to not put all their eggs in one basket and keep labor costs down. Done at the majors via the commuters and freighters also like FedEx Feeder etc.
Exactly! The feud during the Atlas-Polar groups didn't help a bit either, we probably could of stair stepped contracts upwards a bit but got bogged down in the union-union fight there of no way we are going to merge by one group and the years delayed ending up in a desertification of ALPA. So Polar's two strikes and reluctance to merge only brought them up to Atlas CBA parity by the recorded words of the current ExCo Chair during a General Membership Meeting call. Having said that, I have to say it was the ExCo Chair who said it and he is not known for telling the whole or some of the truth at any given time, even now. He should be running for senate or congress where he would shine instead of being a 1224 hired business agent milking the system after 7/19!
Talking about mergers, I'm personally glad Southern got the parity deal knowing what I know of the Section 1 of our CBA. It brings the bookends of the two CBA's up to ours and Atlas can't use Southern's CBA as the bottom end of the scale if we end up in arbitration. Of course, that did negate the current strategy of keeping every new hire hopefuls away from Atlas/Southern to build leverage.
Quickly forgotten by most. I was never really a proponent of it knowing they could make early expense payments, stock buy backs, other acquisitions like Polar to keep the money out of our hands in the profit sharing scheme. Drawback of arbitration but Sect 1 left us little choice but rely on company leaning arbiters and the fact a lot of guys wanted it but didn't realize that the company could spend the money on themselves first before entering the profit sharing scheme.
Oh man, so true! But that is the current tactic for leverage by the union that is supposed to increase leverage for the membership. We have long ago started eating our own at the beginning of Knoxville's administration.
I'm glad you prefer to stay at IBT. I know what ALPA did to us. Been thinking about maybe sending out the failed/retracted promises of ALPA leadership to Atlas along with about 2GB of other stuff. Figure I should let that wound heal though unless any more repeats of that history come fourth.
"Waiting out" has some give and take. It cost us during the Atlas-Polar merger by years to end up at the same point and just a little ahead of most at the time. We could have fit another contract in during that protracted debacle of union to union hate.
We seem to be repeating that now since they seem to be manning the planes as they come on to their current commitment to Amazon. Are they working hard at it and subbing the uncovered out, yes. But the metal is moving. We are short of pilots, but they don't mind lowering the requirements to fill the seats and run constant classes. Just that many more lower paid guys as others move on doing "Touch and Goes" here to another carrier.
One subject you touched on is duration to a final contract. While we have initially have a lack of pilots boom right now helping us at Atlas, how long will it last? Looking at the stock market and numerous other indicators by experts, we might be heading to a recession again. Economy slows down, loads go down flights are decreased and etc. Back side of the curve for us. Something to consider and cycles are usually repetitive.
Do I want arbitration? NO, but I'm not naive enough to think it won't get shoved down our throats looking at Sect 1 of our CBA, history and knowing how arbiters work. I truly hope our negotiating committee is working on plan "B", "C", and "D" other than us sitting in a corner kicking our feet and holding our breath like a five year old expecting to get what they want versus the cards we are dealt under the RLA and CBA. Hopefully the current arbitration will pull a rabbit out of a hat for us. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm relying on history and facts. Guess we will wait and see. I noted some guys taking UB mid Jan. Maybe they are expecting some info from the arbiter, coming up with another plan or just pulling down some UB days at home.
I am also sad to say that I'm disappointed that we have ExCo, Stewards, and committee members on this site discussing this in public thinking they are anonymous. You are exposing us as a union. The Corporate Atlas social media department is monitoring this. While you should have never crippled the union site by "anonymously" migrating exchanges to the facebook page which you were warned about as a security problem and published as such by others solely to limit any membership push back, we have become an open book to the company as to the temperature of the membership although upcoming arbitration will determine where we will go. There are fixes, not absolute, but at least they would have to really work at it.
Originally Posted by scrupulous
Neither is Amazon/DHL .
Who is Amazon/DHL? Neither of those companies have airlines.
Who is Amazon/DHL? Neither of those companies have airlines.
They actually own a number of the aircraft that are then leased to and flown by ACMI carriers. They lease the A/C to ACMI companies and pay them to manage them under those certificates like Atlas/Polar/ABX/Astar/etc. When they are bad for one reason or the other they take them from one carrier and move the A/C to another carrier along with the work to another carrier. I think Comair was similar in which Knoxville hails from. They can also just cancel for lack of performance and give the work to someone else to include aircraft the carriers own and operate for Amazon/DHL. They do this just to not put all their eggs in one basket and keep labor costs down. Done at the majors via the commuters and freighters also like FedEx Feeder etc.
Originally Posted by 742Dash
The problem with this argument is that we have been down the Section 1 road before, and the result of the Atlas/Polar arbitration was NOT as you just described. Not even close. The resulting pay rates were higher than either contract, business class survived and so forth.
There were three contracts in 2011; Atlas, Polar and the arbitrated result. They are available for anyone who wants to dig for them.
There were three contracts in 2011; Atlas, Polar and the arbitrated result. They are available for anyone who wants to dig for them.
Exactly! The feud during the Atlas-Polar groups didn't help a bit either, we probably could of stair stepped contracts upwards a bit but got bogged down in the union-union fight there of no way we are going to merge by one group and the years delayed ending up in a desertification of ALPA. So Polar's two strikes and reluctance to merge only brought them up to Atlas CBA parity by the recorded words of the current ExCo Chair during a General Membership Meeting call. Having said that, I have to say it was the ExCo Chair who said it and he is not known for telling the whole or some of the truth at any given time, even now. He should be running for senate or congress where he would shine instead of being a 1224 hired business agent milking the system after 7/19!
Talking about mergers, I'm personally glad Southern got the parity deal knowing what I know of the Section 1 of our CBA. It brings the bookends of the two CBA's up to ours and Atlas can't use Southern's CBA as the bottom end of the scale if we end up in arbitration. Of course, that did negate the current strategy of keeping every new hire hopefuls away from Atlas/Southern to build leverage.
Originally Posted by 742Dash
The profit sharing program did not change with the 2011 contract.
There are a lot of rosy memories of big profit sharing checks, but they were not large during the bankruptcy and recovery. And before that they had been inflated by Shuyler's creative accounting. In addition the ancient profit sharing program is tied only to Atlas Air, and predates AAWH. So all of the earnings under the expanding umbrella of companies are excluded. This has been understood for some time by those paying attention.
There are a lot of rosy memories of big profit sharing checks, but they were not large during the bankruptcy and recovery. And before that they had been inflated by Shuyler's creative accounting. In addition the ancient profit sharing program is tied only to Atlas Air, and predates AAWH. So all of the earnings under the expanding umbrella of companies are excluded. This has been understood for some time by those paying attention.
Quickly forgotten by most. I was never really a proponent of it knowing they could make early expense payments, stock buy backs, other acquisitions like Polar to keep the money out of our hands in the profit sharing scheme. Drawback of arbitration but Sect 1 left us little choice but rely on company leaning arbiters and the fact a lot of guys wanted it but didn't realize that the company could spend the money on themselves first before entering the profit sharing scheme.
Originally Posted by sky jet
I'm going to just go and grab some popcorn and a beer. Please don't start abusing this guy until I get back.
Oh man, so true! But that is the current tactic for leverage by the union that is supposed to increase leverage for the membership. We have long ago started eating our own at the beginning of Knoxville's administration.
Originally Posted by CallmeJB
Tell that to Bob U (Union leadership) at the 2011 contract road show in the Miami Marriott. Right from his mouth:
He went on to explain how the Section 1 process gave the union limited leverage to negotiate new language, and that we should be pleased the the *Company's recent profitability* has resulted in us being able to secure a contract with pay north of $200/hour.
And he was right. And we were happy. And the pilots generally high-fived each other for being in the right place at the right time. Ohhhh what a difference a few years makes.
The current leadership knows that the section 6 process will result in a MUCH better contract than the section 1 process.
The best way to get the best contract is section 6. The second best way to get the best contract is the passage of time, as the rising tide around us will benefit our new CBA no matter how we get there. The open question is:
We each will have to decide as individuals how much appetite we have for a prolonged process vs. taking a simple payrate increase right now. The company will offer this payrate increase publicly sometime in the next several months. Will you be smiling (the payrates will be very good)? Or will you accept lower pay for longer to get to the real pot of gold, and say "My negotiating committee speaks for me"?
How many of us are in it for the long run? How many of us are in it just for time-in-type and trying to move on? Who is more likely to stand firm, patiently?
The company has played their cards very well so far. By my math they are planning to hire 700+ pilots in 2019, which will sustain their growth even if our attrition triples. They have demonstrated that they are willing to wait it out. Are we?
2019 will be an interesting year.
Either way, I think we can put to bed the question of switching IBT to ALPA or anything else. Of all the choices we have... that one would be catastrophic right now. But it wouldn't be the first time that pilots have been short sighted.
He went on to explain how the Section 1 process gave the union limited leverage to negotiate new language, and that we should be pleased the the *Company's recent profitability* has resulted in us being able to secure a contract with pay north of $200/hour.
And he was right. And we were happy. And the pilots generally high-fived each other for being in the right place at the right time. Ohhhh what a difference a few years makes.
The current leadership knows that the section 6 process will result in a MUCH better contract than the section 1 process.
The best way to get the best contract is section 6. The second best way to get the best contract is the passage of time, as the rising tide around us will benefit our new CBA no matter how we get there. The open question is:
- How much will the passage of time cost us while we are still operating under the 2011 CBA?
We each will have to decide as individuals how much appetite we have for a prolonged process vs. taking a simple payrate increase right now. The company will offer this payrate increase publicly sometime in the next several months. Will you be smiling (the payrates will be very good)? Or will you accept lower pay for longer to get to the real pot of gold, and say "My negotiating committee speaks for me"?
How many of us are in it for the long run? How many of us are in it just for time-in-type and trying to move on? Who is more likely to stand firm, patiently?
The company has played their cards very well so far. By my math they are planning to hire 700+ pilots in 2019, which will sustain their growth even if our attrition triples. They have demonstrated that they are willing to wait it out. Are we?
2019 will be an interesting year.
Either way, I think we can put to bed the question of switching IBT to ALPA or anything else. Of all the choices we have... that one would be catastrophic right now. But it wouldn't be the first time that pilots have been short sighted.
I'm glad you prefer to stay at IBT. I know what ALPA did to us. Been thinking about maybe sending out the failed/retracted promises of ALPA leadership to Atlas along with about 2GB of other stuff. Figure I should let that wound heal though unless any more repeats of that history come fourth.
"Waiting out" has some give and take. It cost us during the Atlas-Polar merger by years to end up at the same point and just a little ahead of most at the time. We could have fit another contract in during that protracted debacle of union to union hate.
We seem to be repeating that now since they seem to be manning the planes as they come on to their current commitment to Amazon. Are they working hard at it and subbing the uncovered out, yes. But the metal is moving. We are short of pilots, but they don't mind lowering the requirements to fill the seats and run constant classes. Just that many more lower paid guys as others move on doing "Touch and Goes" here to another carrier.
One subject you touched on is duration to a final contract. While we have initially have a lack of pilots boom right now helping us at Atlas, how long will it last? Looking at the stock market and numerous other indicators by experts, we might be heading to a recession again. Economy slows down, loads go down flights are decreased and etc. Back side of the curve for us. Something to consider and cycles are usually repetitive.
Do I want arbitration? NO, but I'm not naive enough to think it won't get shoved down our throats looking at Sect 1 of our CBA, history and knowing how arbiters work. I truly hope our negotiating committee is working on plan "B", "C", and "D" other than us sitting in a corner kicking our feet and holding our breath like a five year old expecting to get what they want versus the cards we are dealt under the RLA and CBA. Hopefully the current arbitration will pull a rabbit out of a hat for us. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm relying on history and facts. Guess we will wait and see. I noted some guys taking UB mid Jan. Maybe they are expecting some info from the arbiter, coming up with another plan or just pulling down some UB days at home.
I am also sad to say that I'm disappointed that we have ExCo, Stewards, and committee members on this site discussing this in public thinking they are anonymous. You are exposing us as a union. The Corporate Atlas social media department is monitoring this. While you should have never crippled the union site by "anonymously" migrating exchanges to the facebook page which you were warned about as a security problem and published as such by others solely to limit any membership push back, we have become an open book to the company as to the temperature of the membership although upcoming arbitration will determine where we will go. There are fixes, not absolute, but at least they would have to really work at it.
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