maxjet

Interesting analogy because it is you who still doesn’t get it. My experience? Lead negotiator and Union President of a Law Enforcement agency in my previous 22 year career. Fortunately we did not have to deal with the RLA, and binding arbitration was our friend not the enemy it is to the aviation community. There are still some basic tenants that can be brought to bear here. I will try one last time and then get off of my soap box. Back in the day DHL was free to shift flying to the lowest bidder. Not so today. With a shortage of aircraft and Amazon in the mix, it is a good time to be in negotiations. If you keep putting excuses to fail in front of you it will never get better.

One needs to take the emotion out of the equation and boil it down to the basics. Please try to pay attention as this 5 year old explains it to you.😀

Connie Kalitta is a great example. Simple statement from him. Show me how paying you more, makes more money for me and I will pay you what we need to. Kalitta needed to expand. Kalitta couldn’t hire pilots at the prevailing wages and benefits. That was the ROI. Just like that, a contract was done.

UPS/FedEx are masters at this. They don’t negotiate for or against anyone. They negotiate for themselves. UPS has a very acrimonious relationship with management. I would submit worse that Atlas and ABX. How do they do it? They show management the ROI.

It really is that simple as long as you keep the emotion and finger pointing out of it.

nitefr8dog

Grow a pair and fight for it.....

Bungalow

Bar Raiser and Fighter ??!!
I want to be like you when I get out of 5th grade.

Cujo665

Exactly. The industry isn't as it was just a few short years ago. Getting a short term deal like Omni & Kalitta did for 4 years gets them 85% of what they wanted is smart and positions them for negotiations in three years.

A great example of this was the USAir east/west fighting. An ALPA study showed that based upon contract gains made by other airlines during the years the USAir pilots refused to solve their issues cost the USAir pilots $2 BILLION in lost compensation.

I'm not a big fan of ALPA, but they occasionally do get it right. Taking an 85% deal over the short term with significant gains is better than zero over the same period.

Penny Smart & Dollar Stupid is the old saying that comes to mind.


Nothing is ever perfect.

NeverHome

Or strategic moving of our pieces. One way is to plan ahead and try to estimate your opponents moves. You cannot get your opponent into check make right off the bat. And if they are good you won’t be able to do it in a few short moves.

Or, ATI can do it your way: throw the pieces into managements face and go for a brawl instead. Wonder what’s more effective

Also, you never actually answered my question

nitefr8dog

Be willing to not settle for less than you are worth....working as a cohesive group with at a minimum the carriers under the same umbrella not low balling each other. It would be real easy for ABX to accept ATSG's low offer and cut a deal to get additional flying as was promised and done at ATI.

Cujo665

are the differences worth the difference between FO pay and CA pay that the extra flying will bring more upgrades? Different segments of your pilot group will look at the same deal very differently. There are a lot of variables that go into the calculation. It really depends what the sticking points currently are.

woog315

Who do you suppose wins when only 1 of 3 carriers is holding that line? ATI and Omni both have contracts and the total comp is nearly identical between them. Work rules are basically the same too. But listen to ABX guys and you’d think Omni signed a monster deal and ATI rolled over and ruined the industry- that’s just because most of us would rather hold strong opinions and trash ATI rather than actually sit down and do the math.

nitefr8dog

Of course you forgot to mention Omni was not under the ATSG umbrella when they signed their contract....so joining forces with ABX and ATI to prevent whipsawing from JH really was not on the table now was it? I promise I would have hated most of it too.

b707guy

Yeah, 4+ years of holding the line and coming out better for it = no pair. Got it.

Despite that your pair + your opinion = no room for much else in the building, here we go:

Although our CBA certainly leaves a lot to be desired, ATI absolutely raised the bar. How big of you to expect us to have continued life under our old CBA for the betterment of all. Voting no on what we did get would have lowered the bar for all from its then dismal low-ness.

You keep going on about ATI "taking it up the tailpipe for promises of new shiny jets". No such promises were made. You must have read that on the internet somewhere. Just because you all want it to have been the case, thus allowing you to make these claims, hardly makes it true.

I haven't researched it, but I'm pretty confident that even the most highly paid Walmart cart boy makes less than a 1st year FO at ATI (from day 1, I'll add...). A LOT less.

No scheduling protection? We have a number of things that are now protected and weren't before under the previous CBA. We've also gotten some post-ratification improvements. I won't elaborate, because it won't matter to you, being contrary to your agenda.

Lower DC? It may be lower than what you want, but certainly isn't lower than what we had, and it's more than what K4 and Omni have. You blame us and Omni for not getting more in retirement, so therefore, it's holding you back because if you got more, then we'd ask for more? How about considering that we couldn't get more because you already had more locked up? Thanks for playing into the whipsawing! But I'm happy for you all that you do have what you have.

You make endless fun of our scope (not entirely undeserved, I'll acknowledge), but your scope is what's preventing you from being allocated new aircraft. By all means, keep holding that line!

If we had voted no on this CBA, the tailpipe shoving would have been entirely self inflicted. You might be enjoying the experience, but we weren't going to, and, thankfully, aren't now. We took the steps needed to get on with life. Over 300 pilots are now doing quite well, because what we got was a vast improvement. And we'll continue to improve it. We could have held out for another, what, maybe 5% more of something? Who knows how long that could have taken? We could be hashing it out still to this day! Under our old CBA. And at the same time, like it or not, ABX isn't what it was 20 years ago. I know that wasn't yours or any pilot's doing, but it's the reality. It's up to your negotiators and 1224 to play the cards you have.