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Old 07-17-2019, 08:12 AM   #431  
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Originally Posted by nitefr8dog View Post
That all sounds like quite a bit of planned lost productivity...something I am sure is being discussed at negotiations with 3 airlines at ATSG that cannot get on the same page.
Itís not lost productivity, itís FAR part 117 rest rules- Omni doesnít use the cargo cutout rules We fly people not boxes. I guess it can be discussed but it canít and wonít change as long as we haul warm bodies.
Also we just showed up to the ATSG mess and already all three MEC are communicating with each other so we can work as a united front against ATSG. Having the 1224 at two of the three companys while not perfect will help itís ATI thatís the weak man in this.
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Old 07-17-2019, 09:02 AM   #432  
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.......Also we just showed up to the ATSG mess and already all three MEC are communicating with each other so we can work as a united front against ATSG. Having the 1224 at two of the three companys while not perfect will help [I]itís ATI thatís the weak man in this.[/I
Why do you feel ATI is the weak link in the ďATSG messĒ (your words).
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Old 07-17-2019, 09:31 AM   #433  
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"Also we just showed up to the ATSG mess and already all three MEC are communicating with each other so we can work as a united front against ATSG. Having the 1224 at two of the three companys while not perfect will help itís ATI thatís the weak man in this".[/QUOTE]


God help you!
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Old 07-18-2019, 11:15 PM   #434  
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Do you really believe your argument makes any sense at all, or are you just being obstinate? The only professions that make more on average than pilots at our level are doctors and lawyers. The most important income driver for pilots at an airline with a reasonable contract (both abx and ati currently have reasonable contracts) is growth. ATI seems to get that, while ABX clearly doesnít.

If you think you deserve to have a line on your paycheck for when youíre getting drunk at the hotel bar and crying about how poorly management treats you, maybe you should consider a job that doesnít require travel. Itís part of the territory.
Some holes in your Swiss Cheese:

1) "Reasonable Contract"- Reasonable compared to what ? Your last regional, corporate 24/7 on call, or bottom feeder Acmi gig ? Do you really think ABX 2009 concessionary contract is reasonable compared to K4 or Omni break away 2016/17 CBA's ? With a 20% shortfall in hourly rate ?

Yes, I know about JRM/REA provisions, but the ~ $30 - $50K ABX shortfall across the spectrum of "normal" flying is a lot of extra days/schedule disruptions to get there.

As for ATI, they got improvements, but still fall short of K4, and Omni. Yes, a top ATI Captain base salary is within ~ 5% of K4 counterpart, but they're (ATI) is working 16 more days per year. K4 pilot working 16 open flying days per year would likely make ~ 12 - 15% more than ATI counterpart for working the same number of days. That would be like ordering a pizza, having the delivery driver eat 12 - 15% of your pizza, and expect you to be a happy customer.

2) Growth = Income Gain. No argument there, except it is management, not the pilot group, who calls the shots on expansion. Recall that a few years ago, Delta and Southwest pilot groups voted down company's initial offer, and negotiated an improved TA2. During, and after that interim period, did either airline curtail or freeze their hiring or growth plans ? At the other end, from the early 80's forward there have been countless examples of pilot groups making concessions, yet their companies still filed bankruptcy, or went out of business. Point being that managements will do what they're going to do wrt expansion irregardless of how generous or stingy their pilot contact is.

3) Hotel Soft Time- Much of the airline world outside of Acmi does (sort of) pay you for hotel soft time. Ever hear of Trip Rigs, Minimum Pay Per Duty Period (MPDP), or Minimum Pay Per Day (MPD) ? Certainly helps with those low block/ high TAFB lines.
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Old 07-19-2019, 02:29 AM   #435  
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Some holes in your Swiss Cheese:





2) Growth = Income Gain. No argument there, except it is management, not the pilot group, who calls the shots on expansion. Recall that a few years ago, Delta and Southwest pilot groups voted down company's initial offer, and negotiated an improved TA2. During, and after that interim period, did either airline curtail or freeze their hiring or growth plans ? At the other end, from the early 80's forward there have been countless examples of pilot groups making concessions, yet their companies still filed bankruptcy, or went out of business. Point being that managements will do what they're going to do wrt expansion irregardless of how generous or stingy their pilot contact is.

3) Hotel Soft Time- Much of the airline world outside of Acmi does (sort of) pay you for hotel soft time. Ever hear of Trip Rigs, Minimum Pay Per Duty Period (MPDP), or Minimum Pay Per Day (MPD) ? Certainly helps with those low block/ high TAFB lines.
ATSG gets to pick which airline to send the growth, call it whatever you want (competition... whipsaw.. whatever) but it is not the same game the single carrier companies play.

Money gets moved around different ways, I do not care how my paycheck is divied up as long as my take home is in the ballpark, and has been noted a million times ABX gets a lot of soft pay that puts their end paycheck in the ballpark of the other ACMI guys. Also, "reasonable" does not mean there is no room for improvement.
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Old 07-20-2019, 04:28 AM   #436  
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but it is not the same game the single carrier companies play.
It kinda is, just with an extra middle-man. Ultimately, all companies are competing with other companies, whether it's Delta vs. American, Atlas vs. Omni, or ATI vs. ABX. Granted, when the checks come from the same building, it becomes a lot easier to scare the rubes.
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Old 07-30-2019, 06:10 AM   #437  
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Let me caveat this question by saying I did my research and still cannot find the answer (company website, APC, FlightAware)!

I understand ATI has ETOPS for certain regions but from what I can tell almost all (if not all) of the current flying is in the lower 48. Is this correct? Or are there lines to bid that will be international or at least class II Nav flying?

Thanks all.
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Old 07-30-2019, 06:36 AM   #438  
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Let me caveat this question by saying I did my research and still cannot find the answer (company website, APC, FlightAware)!

I understand ATI has ETOPS for certain regions but from what I can tell almost all (if not all) of the current flying is in the lower 48. Is this correct? Or are there lines to bid that will be international or at least class II Nav flying?

Thanks all.
Saw them in Yokota a couple of months ago...
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Old 07-30-2019, 08:03 AM   #439  
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Saw them in Yokota a couple of months ago...
They are doing the Honolulu run for NAC while they work on ETOPS. Weird thing about ATSG....they own a few airlines....but the main interest of the parent company seems to be growing other airlines with their aircraft leasing business (as opposed to growing their own airline infrastructure).
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Old 07-30-2019, 09:13 AM   #440  
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Just a little history. Joe Hete and Quint Turner set the game in 2008. They despise pilots and the margins are greater with leasing, plus they donít have to deal with personnel. They are both accountants with thin skin. With that said, protect your career and seek other employment. You are expendable. Regardless what John Vestal tells you. They are in the process of shutting down ABX as evidenced by the recent loss of Aeromex. Good luck.
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